09-28-2001, 12:21 PM | #31 | |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
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------------------ Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) |
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09-28-2001, 12:22 PM | #32 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 49
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Also, I believe that bombing the s*** out of Afghanistan or any other country will create many more problems then sending in commandos/snipers/special forces... Yes, some of those elite soldiers will die in the process. That's the way it is. If you think that bombing a country to save the live of 100-200 soldiers is justifiable, let me just ask you if you would rather deal with a terrorist network of about 10-20,000 (fictitious number) or a terrorist group of 10-500 millions. Your call. Finally, just a side note: the situation in Japan in WWII was different than what we have here. In Japan, the entire country (children, elderly, women, men, soldiers, elites, workers, government...) viewed the Allies as the Ennemy. In Afghanistan (and other countries) you are talking about possible supportive government and extremists that consider us the ennemy. That doesn't justify bombing indiscriminantly to save a few lives. Mind you, the cost on lives will actually be much higher on our side if we have to deal with millions of possible terrorists. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? |
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09-28-2001, 02:30 PM | #33 | |
Red Wizard of Thay
Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 51
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Awesome Post!!! And, my most sincere condolences for what happened to you. *HUGS* if you want em. ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" |
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09-28-2001, 03:04 PM | #34 |
Elite Waterdeep Guard
Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Sheffield, England
Posts: 21
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Ryanamur - I think there is a large range of options in between "Bombing the sh** out of Afghanistan" and deploying units of special forces. I am not even suggesting a carpet bombing of Afghanistan dwellings or anything close to that.
You say a few hundred troops will die and this is preferrable to bombing a country and enlarging the terrorist network. Firstly, I have a number of friends in the British Army. Some in the Parachute Regiment who seem likely candidates to be involved. In a truly emotional response, yes I value their lives above those who are strangers to be in another country. By the same logic you could conclude that the deaths of those in the tragedy of the World Trade Centre do not justify inciting Fundamentalist ire. How many of our men should die before it becomes "unjustifiable". As to an expansion to the terrorist network. I would say the Taliban and Bin Laden are only a symptom of anti Western sentiment in the Middle East. How many anti Western demonstrations have we witnessed over the years by the people in any number of countries. Just what is a "possible supportive government". When the Taliban first rose to power they were quite popular as they systematically assassinated the various warlords throughout the regions. If the terrorist movement could increase expontentially following a discriminating military campaign in Afghanistan then surely we shouldn't count on any long term support no matter what happens. Yes Japan is a different situation but Britain and Japan became allies in 1905 when the Japanese defeated the Russians. Westerners were certainly not seen as a traditional enemy in that sense. Yes there was support for a war when it was being fought but that was patriotism as much as anything else. |
09-28-2001, 03:09 PM | #35 |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
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Scott: I think if any special troops are sent, they should go voluntarily and fully knowing that there is a large chance that they will die.
------------------ Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati Lux omnis est |
09-28-2001, 03:12 PM | #36 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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------------------ Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us |
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09-28-2001, 03:15 PM | #37 | |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
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Quote:
------------------ Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati Lux omnis est |
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09-28-2001, 04:07 PM | #38 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: March 29, 2001
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As for your friends in the Army, I'm sorry but I also put my name on the dotted line once in the past. I knew and understood the consequences when I did. So did they or they wouldn't have signed in. I don't believe in indiscriminantly killing Arabs, Muslims, Jews or any other by-standers to get to Bin Ladden. It can be done efficiently without getting more Arabs or Muslims against us. I trully believe that it's in our best interest to actually help the people of not only Afghanistan but also other countries that need help rather than simply turning a blind eye with an "you supported him and now you'll die" attitude. I have no problem with the Talibans except that they execute indiscriminatly their citizens. If they believe that music is the word of the Devil, so be it, that's their opinion. I won't tell them what to do or believe in and, in return, I expect them to do the same. But when you're talking about genocide (especially within your own ethinic group), I can't turn a blind eye. The fact that Bin Ladden is in Afghanistan doesn't mean Afghans support him. It means the government does. So what, we're no less Saints. How many did we kill over the Cold War? Does that mean that Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush and other Western leaders should be executed? No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't mean that all Afghans should pay for this. This going to war thing and full blown deployment of military might is nothing more than a big display to please public demands after the outraceous acts of terrorism that we witness. Ironnic that we are quick to point responsability to Bin Ladden and his groups to only fail to realize that our own inefficiency, lack of professionalism and sentiment of compleciency got us were we are. Ever since the USSR fell we've been hearing about how going from a bi-polar world to a uni-polar world will create instability thereby increasing drastically the risk of terrorists attack on us. What did we do? We kept cutting budgets, cutting personnel, making security more and more lax. Now, we got the wake-up call that experts have been predicting for over 10 years. The funny thing is: those people that made really bad judgement calls are also responsible for what happened. They are still sitting in their nice office, still making recommendations for the elected body of our nations to base their decisions on. We're not going after them and their error in judgement are we? Why, because we're not ready to admit that we also royally screwed up. These and future terrorist acts should not come to a surprise to any of us. Hell, they told us a year, 2 months and again 2 weeks before they attacked that we were going to pay. All we did was send a small warning that no one took seriously. Mark my worlds: Unless we clue in and solve our problems (both at homes and abroad), terrorists will just keep hiting us and we'll just keep going "bad terrorists, we didn't take any real measures to ensure that you wouldn't strike again, why would you strike again, bad, bad, bad terrorist". We didn't clue in yet. Our economy is going to down the drain. So far 125,000 workers in the airline industry have lost their jobs. When the ripple effects will stop, you'll be able to bring that number up by about 10 times. Yet, we didn't do anything to solve this problem. We are so focused on getting Bin Ladden, we didn't even realize that those guys totally destabilized our whole economic system and way of life. Guess what, so far, they've proven themselves to be way wiser and head of the issues than we. I'm sorry I had to be so harsh but I did edit ALOT of it before posting. This is what I've been thinking for over 2 weeks and finally posted it. Fire away, I'm wearing kevlar. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? [This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).] |
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09-28-2001, 04:53 PM | #39 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Hugh ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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09-28-2001, 05:08 PM | #40 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
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Your point regarding the economy - yes, and not just America's! All over the world, countries that have committed to liberalisation of trade, who have borrowed money to develop, and who have contracts with America are suffering already. (I edit a business retail site, and the stories that are coming in are full of woe.) Many of these countries have huge debts (which they took out to finance development so they could compete in world markets), and rely on exports to pay them. Where some of them are now is called up shit creek without a paddle, where I come from. (Globalisation of trade = dangerous dependencies, in my view, - as we are now seeing. But that's a whole other topic...) ------------------ Ascended Mistress of Illumination [This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-28-2001).] |
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