Can we prove Santa Claus does NOT exist?

[Yorick]

From encarta online: http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise....2&ti=761553439

Patrick, Saint■(389?-461?), called the Apostle of Ireland, Christian prelate. His birthplace is uncertain, but it was probably in southwestern Britain; his British name was Succat. At 16 years of age he was carried off by Irish marauders and passed his captivity as a herdsman near the mountain Slemish in county Antrim (according to tradition) or in county Connacht. The young herdsman saw visions in which he was urged to escape, and after six years of slavery he did so, to the northern coast of Gaul. Ordained a priest, possibly by Saint Germanus, at Auxerre, he returned to Ireland. Sometime after 431, Patrick was appointed successor to St. Palladius, first bishop of Ireland. Patrick concentrated on the west and north of Ireland, establishing his see at Armagh. Patrick's two surviving works are written in Latin and demonstrate his acquaintance with the Vulgate translation of the Bible. In one of these works, the Confessions, Patrick portrays himself as an ignorant yokel in an unequal contest with the powerful and learned adherents of Pelagianism. His reported use of the shamrock as an illustration of the Trinity led to its being regarded as the Irish national symbol. A strange chant of his, called the Lorica, is preserved in the Liber Hymnorum (Book of Hymns), and what purports to have been a handbell he used during Mass is shown in the National Museum in Dublin. His traditional feast day is March 17.

From nerone online: http://www.nerone.cc/newslett/claus.htm

Saint Nicholaus... Santa Claus The 6th December is the feast day of St. Nicholas. Regarded by historians as a purely legenday character, Nicholas is supposed to have lived in the fourth century AD. Born in Patara (Turky) from a welthy family Nicholas was made priest by his uncle the Archbishop of Myra. At the death of his parents Nicholas gaved all his havings to the poor and went to Palestine. Returning to Myra was made Bishop. According to legend the Archbishop of that seaport had just died and the local clergy had decided that the firs priest entering the chuech on the following morning would be made bishop. That was Nicholas who then became the Bishop of Myra. Many are the stories around the figure of St. Nicholas, indeed made saint because of his generousity, modesty and miracles... A famous story tells that visiting a certain inn Nicholas descovered that the innkeeper had the habit of stealing small children, kill them and serve them to his guests. Finally Nicholas found a case containing the bodies of three kids and on the sign of the cross rescued them back to life. In honour of this story Nicholas became the patron saint of small children. The reason why Nicholas became patron saint of sailors and travellers is that on a voyage to the Holy Land the boat on which Nicholas was sailing was about to be wreck by the violent waves of a sea storm. Nicholas made the storm calm down, saving the boat. But the most famous story is the one that generate the legend of Santa Claus! Having heard about a nobleman who had lost all his havings, Nicholas decided to provide a dowry for his three daughters. He secretly threw, through a window of the man house, a bag full of gold for each girl . Nicholas was descovered while throwing the third bag, but begged the nobleman not to reveal the thrut. For this story Nicholas became also the patron saint of girls without dowry. Being St. Nicholas day on th 6th of December, close to Christmas day, his story was compared to the one of the Magi. Gradually Nicholas merged with the Christmas story and became familiar with the name of Santa Claus. Indeed is on his feast day that, in many countries, little presents and candies are given to children. In the Republic of Slovacchia for example on the night of the 5th Dec children polish their shoes to find filled of presents and candies on the following morning. Very symilar is the Italian tradition of the Epiphany, on 6th January... a kind old woman who flyes her brume and from chimney to chimney brings presents and candies to the children. Instead of the shoes in Italy we traditionally use sox. On the 9 May In 1087, some Italian merchant steal the body of St. Nicholas in Myra and brought it to Bari, in Puglia (southern Italy) when on the 22 June 1197 a great Basilica was consecrated to the saint. In Rome, in past times, there were 34 churches dedicated to St. Nicholas (the total number of churches is of nearly 400) of which only three survive today. The most ancient is the one of St. Nicola in Carcere (on Via del Mare), another is on Via dei Prefetti and a third on Largo Febo, near Piazza Navona with fine frescoes by Corrado Giaquinto (beginning of 18th century). Various is his iconography... always represented holding three bags or balls (recalling the story of the three girls) often is portrayed with children, a anchor or with a seaport on the background (again to recall his patronages). Saint Nicholas is also patron saint of loyers, traders, spice-dealers, perfumery-dealers and victims of judicial mistakes.

[ 06-17-2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Sir Goulum]

Wow, Yorick. That's fascinating!

[Harkoliar]

just wanna pop in and say "Hi Yorick" !! [img]smile.gif[/img] going to discussions & debate again?" lol

nice facts though: i didnt know santa was a pagan [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Harkoliar: just wanna pop in and say "Hi Yorick" !! [img]smile.gif[/img] going to discussions & debate again?" lol nice facts though: i didnt know santa was a pagan [img]smile.gif[/img]

Zor, according to that article from nerone I posted, he wasn't.

[DeSoya]

I think that the fact that we keep giving gifts in the memory of Saint Nick is testament to at least some ephemeral existance. If he doesn't exist in person, and I don't believe that he does, he exists in our minds to the point where we practice a bit of charity at least once a year.
I personally don't give gifts on Christmas anymore. I prefer to give them on the sixth of december (saint nicks day) or the sixth of January (three kings day). Seems better to me that way. Plus I can spend Christmas with my family. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Here's some funny stuff about the physical impossibility of Santa.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rascalzo/a...a-physics.html

And here's a webpage about the origin of Santa. I'm leaning towards the santa being pagan thing. I couldn't find anything online but I do remember reading some books and fairy tales that describe santa like people running around BCE.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm

DeSoya

[Sir Goulum]

But maybe Santa has a special shield so he doesn't burn up with the super fast reindeer powering!

[John D Harris]

Santa exists I saw him, or his foot at least, when I was but a wee lad. We were visiting an aunt and uncle for christmas, they didn't have a chimney so Santa used the front door. I heard him woke up and came running into the living room just as he was leaving out the front door.

Yorrick,

Your response is well thought out and I do respect your beliefs. I still believe I have every right to question them! Especially as you believe that I am missing out on something very special. I do think that you need to look at it from a non-christian’s point of view though.

It’s easy for you to say “What I'm saying is that you cannot with any certainty say anything DOES NOT EXIST”, but is it really practical to put that statement into use. I cannot say with any certainty that the moon is not made of cheese! I haven’t been to the moon, and even if textbooks tell me that it is not made of cheese, technically I still don’t actually know. But is it then reasonable for me to, not only admit that the moon may very well be made of cheese, but to actually believe that it is.

So, based on your statement, I don’t 100% know that there isn’t a God. But that doesn’t in any shape or form, give many any reason what-so-ever, to believe that there is one. Furthermore, I could reverse the idea on you and say that there is no possible way that you can know that God exists. You may believe that he exists. You may have had experiences that persuade you towards thinking that there is a God, but can you really tell me that you KNOW! I don’t think so. You told me that you KNOW you have a soul as well. I don’t think you can possibly say that with absolute knowledge.

Anyway, I’m sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting that even if I don’t believe in God, that I should accept that you believe God is real. I’m sorry if it seems that I (amongst others) don’t accept your belief. It’s just that you believe in God because you have had many experiences in your life that you regard as evidential. I obviously have either had none of these experiences, or did not regard them to be evidential in any way. You say that you don’t have time or space to tell me about your experiences, but I for one would like to know what they are! What experiences can possibly be enough for someone to say with such certainty that God exists, and that Christianity is for real.

Finally, I really get frustrated at statements such as “I have nothing to lose”. The amount of people I’ve heard say “Oh well, maybe I’m wrong! But isn’t it worth the chance that I’m wrong, just in case I am right!” I’m sorry, but belief just doesn’t work that way. If that was the case, then sign me up! I’m ready to commit! If some people can make themselves believe something “just in case” it turns out to be correct, I certainly am not one of them. It’s a pretty clear cut line. You either do, or you don’t. None of this what have you got to lose stuff.

Avi.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aviendha: I obviously have either had none of these experiences, or did not regard them to be evidential in any way. .

And there you have it.

I have analysed my experience of life and come to the conclusion there is a God who loves me (and you) , who desires relationship with us and, just as he gave life, offers eternal life with him to any who want it.

You have different experience and consequently different analysis. It is to be expected that we humans reach differing conclusions.

The difference is I am not trying to tell you, you are deluded, experiencing chemotropic hallucination, insane or wanting to believe your worldview, thus perpetuating it.

If you are perceiving me to be saying you are missing out on something, well that may be the case. By definition I have an additional set of experiences (The normal human one, plus life with God in it)

There's no need to feel offended by that. I am not scorning or condemning you, nor seeking to change your mind.

I am asking for tolerance. That is all. The acceptance that what I and my bretheren believe is of equal validation to any other athiestic worldview.

Concerning the substance of the moon, that is not really the same analogy. With the question "what is the moon made of",
all is speculation until the substance is tested. Then the public relys on the testimony of those who experienced the collection of the data, to tell us what the moon is made of.

Clearly, the one who experiences the said substance collection is in a better position to determine what the moon is made of that one who has not experienced it.

In this thread what we are dealing with, is the actual existence, or nonexistence of a creator awareness. Of the person Jesus Christ.

A significant proportion of humanity claim to be in regular communication with this persona.

An alternate propartion of humanity are not in regular communication with him and thus claim he does not exist.

Who is being the more foolish? Who is making statements outside their experience?

What I am saying is, a person cannot speak outside their experience when seeking to contradict another.

You say that the moon is made of cheese? Niel Amstrong says otherwise, and I accept his testimony to yours.

You say you have never experienced God, and cannot thus believe? Fine. No problem.

You make the universal statement that God does not exist and we are all deluded. Now we have a problem.

I say, I know God. I know I have a soul. I make a living communicating with the "language of the soul", music. I know God.

This is not an exclusive experience. If one searches with an open mind, one finds him. It's not hard to see his hand everywhere once the minds eyes are open.

[ 06-18-2002, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[WOLFGIR]

Oki, first of all, this be a non serious but serious post. Yorrick (sorrrry but you really shouldn´t have made that post mate ) has known me long enough to see this one comming!

There will be no idea in believing in him after this X-mus since I will catch him and eat that dude this year!!

Afterall, the search for truth is always a one person buisness in the end. You decide what is your truth, but also know that the more you think you know, the more you will know that there is so much still to learn, that you will probably never know it all.