Yet Another Mage vs Sorcerer Thread

[Butterfingers]

Not trying to start a flame war, or, heated debate. Just a friendly chat.

Playing a Sorcerer, well, it's just not as fun as playing a Mage. Sure, you get spells for free, lots of spells, and that's just the problem.

For me, the best part of playing a Mage is hunting down all of the scrolls you need, scribing them, and carefully selecting what spells you need. All of the fun has been taken out of magery by my Sorceress.

There is a certain tactical feel to playing a carefully constructed Mage. There is a sense of accomplishment in hunting down obscure scrolls, finding rare arcane spells, and the feeling of freedom you have in carefully selecting spells before battle. When my Sorceress got a Mordie's Sword for free with no effort, I noticed I felt really let down. Bam. A hard won spell, gained with no effort. Ho-hum, total let down. Really deflated my game playing, leaving me only with boredom rather then a feeling of accomplishment.

Anybody else ever felt cheated of a good gaming experience?

[LennonCook]

A sorcerer can be just as good as a mage, to a different person. It realy depends on your playing style.
If you realy want fun, though, try making a Sorcerer with random spells.

[Gangrell]

It just kinda sucks, a sorcerer with maxed out levels can't learn anymore spells [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img] But wait... sorcerers can use all of their memorized spells, add more spells with ShadowKeeper... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Lord Demerol]

To me, Sorcerer=Power, not fun. The flexibility of a mage when preparing the spells he'll need for a specific tactic -or situation- is a big part of the fun. A Sorcerer doesn't go thru that, he already knows everything. He's absolutely sure of which spells to choose, when to select them, and when and how to use it. He won't make funny experiments like "so, what happens if I put this and this on a trigger?". He's serious, cold and deadly serious.

A Mage is fun... a Sorcerer doesn't have a funny bone in his entire body!.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Woot! A discussion about Sorcerers and Mages that has nothing to do about who has the bigger stick. Threads like these are rarer than a hen's tooth.

Jesting aside, fun is a subjective word. Some people, like me, like to gain power( legitimately of course) and use it to utterly CRUSH the opposition.

Since young( well... not that young, when I started reading Terry Pratchett), I have had always dreamed of being a Sorcerer. The idea of using arcane magic to rain scorching fire and smoking brimstone upon the heads of( usually) screaming, hapless foes was very appealing to me.

Sorcerers are about power, and some people like power. That is where the appeal of the Sorcerer comes from. Absolutely munchkin, no-holds-bar, sky's-the-limit, who's-your-mama POWER.

Some will of course... find this not to their liking, but hey, the world will be a boring place if everybody had the same taste. On a side note, Sorcerers can have quirky experiments. Some of the hilarious spell combinations on the Spell Reference site came about because of fooling around with Sorcerers.

[Butterfingers]

I dunno about power. At the end of SoA, all of my Mages feel more powerful, if only for the reason they can change their spell lists at the drop of a hat. There is probably more power for the level for a Mage, perhaps if only for a while. At lower levels, more spells, more variety. I can learn things like Spell Thrust or other seemingly useless spells to help me along when I need it, with out ever having to worry about wasting a precious spell slot. I can get 7k experience for scribing a Khelben's Warding Whip. I am free to use visual eye candy like Colour Spray with out ever having to worry that I am ruining a character come later. I can do things like place Shield and Strength into a Minor Spell Trigger, making my mage immune to Magic Missle and making him a little more effective in combat (Strength powered slings) and improving my odds of survival in a party. (A rather dangerous place for a young mage actually. A solo mage really does have a better chance of survival)

But, it's not about power, as power does little to fend off boredom. A character has to stay interesting to keep playing it.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Hmmmm... as in all cases where one compares and contrasts, both sides have their pros and cons. If we stick to the game and leave PnP out of the equation( no what ifs or buts), it should be evident on how different the Mage plays from the Sorcerer.

The Mage has excellent versatility in his spell memorisation, but almost zilch spell versatility during combat.

The Sorcerer has zilch versatility in his spell memorisation, but extreme spell versatility during combat.

What this means is that certain tactics which work well for Mages, may not apply so well to Sorcerers, and vice-versa.

However, due to the Sorcerer's unique method of spellcasting, certain game-breaking tactics are open to him, whereas the Mage has to use weaker alternatives.

If I had to single out one spell that best illustrates the differences between the Mage and the Sorcerer, it will have to be Project Image. It is extraordinary in the hands of a Mage, but Godly in the hands of a Sorcerer. What a Mage can output with Project Image, a Sorcerer can easily double it and more( due to spell versatility during combat).

As for survival, as Alson, me and most veteran spellcasters will tell you, whether you be a Mage or a Sorcerer, you do not need so many protective spells in the game. The Golden Trio of Mirror Image, Stoneskin and Spell Immunity will handle just about 95% of the threats in the game, while Protection from Magical Weapons is only vital towards the end-game.

Lastly, with regards to your last statement, as I said. To each his own. I personally take delight in seeing how fast I can kill an enemy, or how sadistic I can be in dispatching the enemy. Absolute power may not appeal to you in the game, but it does to me( so long as it is legitimate( I personally despise cheated characters)).

[Butterfingers]

Due to Staff of the Magi Cheese, the Sorcerer having more spells is a moot point. A Mage can fire off just as many Project Images as a Sorcerer can, so long as as he keeps feeding himself.

And, not to mention, that is poor roleplaying.

As for defensive spells, I like defensive spells. It is because of my careful use of seemingly useless defensive spells, or, other seemingly useless spells for that matter, that I can safely take on things like Dragons with a party around level 9 to 11 with hardly any deaths or even needing to reload, using no cheese what so ever, just a good fair fight.

While I do agree, a well planned and well played Sorcerer can be fun, it does not seem to last. They lack something I crave, flexibility. If I want to cast Tensor's and Improved Haste and send my Mage into battle to kick ass and take names (Like I did with my Transmuter) I can. With a Sorcerer, I had better not. Level 6 spell slots are few and precious. Now I know, sending a Mage into battle might not seem wise, but, for roleplaying purposes, some times even the most weakling mage will some times want to show those sissy fighters a thing or two about how to open a can of whoopass. Nothing is so comical to think about as an angry Mage going berserk in a city of Mindflayers, bashing those brainsuckers brains in with his trusty staff, all the while immune to their attacks. Call it cruel poetic irony that Mindflayers get slaughtered by a brain they would love to nibble.

I will say though, my Necromancy based sorceress project was fun. At times. I even used the touchy feely spells, like Ghoul Touch and Vampire Touch. She gave a large angry red dragon a nasty case of disease that caused his scales to rot with the touch of her little pinky finger.

[Dundee Slaytern]

With regards to Project Image( PI), you have missed the reason why Sorcerers can exploit this spell to its' fullest potential. The key lies in the spell versatility that Sorcerers have during combat situations.

A Sorcerer can cast 6 level 2 spells, and so can a Mage. However... the Sorcerer's PI clone can convert all his/her level 2 spells into offensive or defensive spells as he/she pleases. The Mage's PI clone on the other hand, can only cast what the Mage had memorised, limiting his/her options.

It was never really about how many PIs you can cast... but what you can do with the PIs.

On a side note, the Staff of Magi is not suitable for the Spell Trap recharge tactic that Mages use, due to the simple fact that you need to rest to recharge your staff, which is not part of the Spell Trap recharge tactic.

You need to actually memorise a Spell Trap and use it to access the tactic of infinite spells through Spell Trap.

I am a bit puzzled though, why you consider this poor roleplaying.

Finally, while I agree that Mages can modify their role in the party by changing their spell selection, it still misses the point that Sorcerers were not designed for whacky scenerios( well... most of the time ). Power, it is all about the power, and unless you love and crave power in the game, Sorcerers are not really for you( although I do concede that it is viable to try and roleplay a Sorcerer without powergaming in mind( but this is not common)).

Take heed that Sorcerers do not necessarily mean you have to be totally calculative in your battles though, with spells meticulously casted for maximum efficiency, where if somebody so much as looks at you funny, he/she becomes a puddle of goo within the blink of an eye.

There are... quirky things you can do with a Sorcerer( assuming my own spell list), like punching Dragons unconsicious before stabbing them to death with the very dagger that your apprentices made for you( this is open to Mages too of course).

Bunnies truly become instruments of mass carnage when merged with another spell. This requires a ToB spell though, and Mages can only make use of it to a certain degree.

Sorcerers can also decide to sneeze and kill an entire town in seconds, although this again requires a ToB spell, and Mages will find it troublesome to duplicate this tactic( although this might not be considered quirky, but obscene powergaming).

The list goes on and on. The only limit is the extent of your imagination, and how far you are willing to squeeze every single combination out of a spell that is available to you. I have been playing Sorcerers in this game for years now, and I have yet to grow tired of them.

[Dragonshadow]

Mages all the way for me. They can have more and better spells, and they can adapt them at 8 hours notice. Plus the challange of getting scrolls is always worth it.