Raising attributes

[farl]

I would like to receive some advice/suggestion about attribute raising on level ups. My problem is that the effect of attributes is threefold. Firstly, there is a direct effect (e.g. more strength -> more damage or more piety -> more spell points), secondly, an attribute serves as a control factor for skills, and thirdly, a natural attribute value of 100 unlocks a coveted personal skill. Even this brief consideration shows how complex the effects are and how difficult the choice is, which attributes to raise.

May be an example depicts my calamities. If I want to create a mighty fighter, route 1 could be to raise strength (damage output, attack value, stamina), speed (initiative, more attacks), vitality (hit points, stamina), senses (initiative, attack value), and dexterity (attack value, number of swings). Five attributes are a lot to focus on, but a lot of "secondary attributes" would be improved. Route 2 would be to raise senses as the (main) controlling attribute for close and ranged combat and for dual weapons, and strength or/and dexterity for the various weapon skills. This would raise most skills considerably just by two or three attributes to raise, but the "secondary skills" (attack value, initiative ...) are somehow neglected. Route 3 would be to create a lizardman with STR=73, VIT=73, DEX=67, SPD=67 allowing four expert skills at level 21. But this includes three very low attributes (INT=25, PIE=25, SEN=30) with all their disadvantages.

Of course, the fighter is just an example, and things are different for other classes, but I hope I made clear what I mean.

Side question: what is the approximate relation between controlling attribute value and likeliness of skill improvement by training?

[Pyrates]

Heyho!

One thing you should consider are the exceptional skills you get when you raise an attribute to 100, they are VERY important for certain classes (e.g. eagle shot for the gadgeteer, which you get for 100 in senses). That is, for your fighter, raise strength as fast as possible to get Powerstrike (or whatever it was called). OTOH, I've never had a fighter, so maybe there are better ideas.

That said, I'd really focus on 2 attributes, MAXIMAL 3. Chooses them by the effects you mentioned above, and how they suit you (I like raising speed and dexterity for the additional increase in initiative and for more attacks). You can also check out http://geocities.com/jandrall/ for many thoughts on certain classes.

Hope that helps, cheers
Philipp

[Loudhy]

Welcome farl.

I prefer to raise 2 attributes to max at once instead of three. It's more important to unlock the advanced skill for the profession early.

For a fighter I prefer strengh and dexterity. Strengh because of powerstrike ( like pyrates mentioned ) and reflexion which not only makes it harder for the monsters to hit the character, you also gain additional attacks.

A fighter has enough HP to survive, so I never d maxed out VIT. Of course that just my opinion.

Greetings

[img]graemlins/monster5.gif[/img]

[xfactor]

I agree with Loudhy about the Fighter and about raising 2 attributes each level up.

Vit is usually in the second tier of attributes that I increase once Str and Dex are maxed out. The other attribute I usually concentrate on is Speed, particularly with Lizarmen or Draconians whose Senses is so low that raising it is pointless.

In general you want to concentrate on 2 attributes, in my opinion. Wiz 8 really rewards specialization, unlike the previous two games which were the opposite. Don't worry if one character has low score in one area, the point of having a party of characters is that they all cover each other's weaknesses.

xfactor

[Klutz]

First of all, here's an excellent site for examining the pros & cons of the different attributes and development paths:

http://www.flamestryke.com/wizardry8...trykes_w8.html

Go to "Char Dev Index" and then explore the various topics, including "Attributes" and "Character Building".

Pretty much everyone has their opinions on what attributes are best to develop, and there's also an argument about specialization vs generalization. Wizardry makes this even tougher by ensuring that every single attribute has at least some value for every single character. Search around and you'll find plenty of discussion.

Now, on to my two cents.

I am definitely in favor of specialization: focus on a small number of attributes to gain access to certain key expert skills earlier and other benefits. Yes, every attribute can benefit every character, but some are flat-out better for certain characters than others, and you'll have a stronger character overall by maintaining that focus rather than spreading it around to less key attributes.

However, there's more than one way to specialize, even after you've picked the attributes you want to focus on. Here's the three general ways to build a focused character:

3x3: Pick 2 attributes to focus on, and raise them to max ASAP by putting in 3 points per level into each. As they max switch to building 2 other attributes similarly. This usually gets you 2 expert skills ASAP, but only those 2: you won't max the other 2 attributes unless you keep playing long after you could have ended the game. It is possible for a properly planned Lizardman Fighter to pull off maxing 4 attributes in this manner by the early level 20s, but no other race/class combination in the game can do so. Still, this is a sensible plan for many characters that have several important attributes but only two that really

2x2x2: Pick 3 attributes to focus on, and raise them equally by putting in 2 points per level into each. When one maxes, go 3x3 on the remaining 2 if they haven't. For many characters this can get you 3 expert skills before the game ends, but you'll get them later than the 3x3 plan. For some odd race/class combinations that give you poor bonus points you may not be able to max 3 attributes in this manner, but for most (certainly all of yours except maybe the Dwarf Monk) this is a reliable way of achieving 3 expert skills.

3x1.5x1.5: Pick 3 attributes to focus on, but pick one of those 3 to REALLY prioritize. Give that one attribute 3/lvl till you max it, and split the remaining 3 points among the other 2 attributes. Or, similarly, go 3/3/0 for about half the levels it takes to max the first attribute, then 3/0/3 for the rest of the levels. This is almost identical to the 2x2x2 plan, except that you can get one expert skill just as fast as you would have under the 3x3 plan, and the other two come in later at the same time as they would have under the 2x2x2 plan. It's my preferred way to build characters that focus on 3 attributes, since you get that one expert skill early enough to be able to take full advantage of it.

Now my two cents on the various attributes:

STR: Provides an incredible array of benefits to close combatants: more damage, better chance to hit in close combat, increased stamina, primary attribute for almost all melee weapons, and unlocks Powerstrike. A must for any close combatant, usually as priority #1.

DEX: Provides a better chance to hit, but both for close and ranged combat (unlike STR which just helps close combat). Provides increased attacks/swings, which is critical for any combatant. Primary for Dagger, and secondary for most other weapons. High priority for most close and ranged combatants. Unlocks Reflection.

SPD: Provides initiative. Provides increased attacks/swings, which is critical for any combatant. Helps with a couple of skills. Unlocks Snakespeed, which provides even more initiative. Handy for all classes, but especially spellcasters that need to get spells off before the enemy.

VIT: Provides more HP and stamina. Unlocks Ironskin, which provides physical damage resistance. Never unwelcome for any character, but usually not high priority enough to focus on.

SEN: Provides initiative and better chance to hit for both close and ranged combat. Primary for Critical Strike, Dual Wield, Close and Ranged Combat, and Psionics. Unlocks Eagle Eye, which provides better ranged chance to hit. Handy for ranged combatants, who love Eagle Eye and hate wasting ammo, and spellcasters that need to get spells off before the enemy. Also handy for close combatants, especially ones that use Critical Strike, but generally not as high priority for them as other attributes.

INT: Primary attribute for all 6 Magic realms and Wizardry. Unlocks Powercast, which increases the power/duration of spells and reduces the enemy's chance to resist them. Primary and/or secondary for many general-use skills, interestingly including Close and Ranged Combat. A must for any spellcaster, generally as priority #1, to unlock Powercast ASAP and raise realm skills quickly.

PIE: Provides stamina and extra spell points. Unlocks Iron Will, which increases resistance to all magic realms. Primary for Divinity (but not the Divine realm, which like all realms uses INT). Useful but not a must for spellcasters (not even Priests) and just about useless for close and ranged combatants (except for extra stamina if maxed STR and VIT isn't enough for some reason). Solo characters for whom enemy spell effects can be especially deadly sometimes choose to focus on this just for Iron Will.


Now let's discuss your 6 specific characters:

human lord: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, VIT. Powerstrike and Reflection will both be handy expert skills for this character, and you can have them both by 16th level by focusing on STR and DEX. SPD and VIT can then increase later for a little more speed and resilience.

human valkyrie: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, SEN. Powerstrike and Reflection again, as early as 15th level. Not quite identical to the Lord, using SEN instead of VIT later on to boost initiative a tad instead of HP, so she can cast spells or otherwise act a little faster.

dwarf monk: Recommendation: STR, VIT to max, then DEX, SPD. Yes, the Dwarf Monk with Ironskin gives you the best physical damage resistance of any character in the game. If you have decided to go that route, then I'd definitely pair it with STR. You should wind up with Powerstrike and Ironskin at 18th level. (Later than with most classes, but that's the price you pay for picking a character that starts as an apprentice.) You won't see that many attacks with this character until much later when you get a chance to start raising DEX and SPD, but this will definitely be someone that can take punishment on the frontline. Monks with Martial Arts rule, by the way... go barefisted/barefooted and you won't regret it. You'd probably get a more deadly character by starting STR, DEX and then SPD, SEN, but not a more resilient one.

felpurr samurai: Recommendation: STR, SPD to max, then SEN, DEX. Normally for a Samurai I'd recommend STR and DEX, but since this is also your only Wizardry caster, it will be a good idea to have Snakespeed so at high levels you can cast key Wizardry spells before the enemy can act. With this build your Samurai won't connect as often as your other party members, but will act faster and occasionally steal kills with the Critical Strike skill. You can get Snakespeed at 13th level and Powerstrike at 16th level if you focused on STR/SPD from creation. Pump SEN along with STR for levels 13-16 to start getting even more initiative.

hobbit rogue: Recommendation: STR, DEX to max, then SPD, SEN. Like those 60 bonus points, eh? Hope you put 20 each into STR and DEX. Reflection at 10th, Powerstrike at 15th, and Snakespeed and Eagle Eye at 25th are possible for this character. (You should be about ready to win the game by 25th level, by the way.) Stealth, plus the ability to wear decent armor and even a shield if needed reduce the need for vitality, allowing you to focus on the more active combat attributes. Rogues are the cuisinarts of Wiz8, dealing incredible damage with backstabs.

lizardman fighter: Recommendation: STR, VIT to max, then DEX, SPD. My real recommendation is actually more complex, but that is the easiest Lizardman Fighter plan to follow and if you do it right (starting from character creation), you can get Powerstrike, Ironskin, Reflection, and Snakespeed by 21st level. By starting with the Lizardman's two best attributes, you can get Ironskin at 6th and Powerstrike at 9th. This character will be able to deal and absorb incredible amounts of damage. Beware the low Lizardman mental resistances, though, and make a point to collect and utilize any items (and cast spells) that improve your Lizardman's mental resistance for key fights: you don't want this character to go insane on you!


Anyway, just my two cents. Enjoy whatever your choices!


PS: My real Lizardman Fighter recommendation: All bonus points to STR, DEX, SPD. STR, DEX till STR maxes (level 9), then DEX, SEN until DEX maxes (level 12), then SPD, SEN until SPD maxes (level 23), then VIT, SEN till the end (level 33, but you'll win long before then). This gives you 100 STR, DEX, and SPD, as well as 70 VIT and 70 SEN by level 23. It's fun to max VIT early for a Lizardman Fighter, but really unnecessary: Fighters get the most HP as is, and a Lizardman's base 70 VIT will add even more on top of that. A Lizardman Fighter's only real weakness is that low SEN. This build still gets you Powerstrike and Reflection fast, but starts building SEN up starting from level 10 to improve the Close Combat skill, which will otherwise lag due to low SEN.

[TinyMage]

If you want my opinion:

If you will be using haste, for all characters max strength + dex first with 3 points per level.

If you won't be using haste, max strength + speed first for all characters with 3 points per level.

everything else is unnescessary for a melee party.

You dont need senses ( strength does a better job for melee and you dont need eagle eye ).

You dont need intellegence.

You dont need piety ( strength is better for stamina and magic resistance from the expert skill is not enough to neglect str / speed / dex ).

Vitality would be nice, but you need str / speed / dex more. Most of your party should have enough health regardless.

After strength / dex / speed is maxed, I would max vitality then its a tossup I guess ( depending on how you play ).

As far as pumping attributes for raising skills faster, I say, it aint worth it. Your skills will raise fast enough regardless. If you really want higher controlling attributes you can buy some amulets of piety / vitality / whatever from a few vendors. That will help a little.

[TinyMage]

Oh yes i forgot to add, about damage resistance and the monk.

The damage resistance is nice, but with stealth he will probably never get hit anyway, unless by magic. So its pretty much a waste to pump vitality first for iron skin, unless you plan on setting him in front all alone, and at the same time he won't be doing the kind of damage to make him worth while, because you will neglect strength or speed.

And whats this about martial arts??? are you nutz? even with a terribly weak weapon he will do more damage ( and more instakills ) then barehanded.

Give him the staff of doom or the zoitachi bo and he should do nicely, and he will also have some range.

Before that, there are some good staves bought or found early on he can train up with.

[farl]

Thank you all for taking the time to make some valuable comments and suggestions. There are some interesting points you made, and I will reconsider my initial development plan.

Klutz, I'd like to especially thank you for your elaborate analysis on my party and the according attribute point distribution. I mostly appreciate that you focussed on every character of my party and the route he/she should take.

One side question comes to my mind. Without a pure spell caster, one focus of my all melee party is magic, but the attributes intelligence and piety are completely neglected. Are the initial values high enough to develop decent spell casting just by practice?

[TinyMage]

Originally posted by farl: Are the initial values high enough to develop decent spell casting just by practice?

Depends what you mean by practice. If you mean just walking through the game and casting spells as you need them, then you would be lucky to get the magic school in the 70's by the end of the game ( assuming you didn't hang around longer then you had to ). This could vary depending on how many points you put into magic skills every level.

If you powertrained then you can get all your magic skills including magic realms to 100, it just takes maybe twice as long as if you had intellegence at max.

However, you can get a helm that gives you +20 intellegence, and a shield that gives + 10. You can equip them every time you want to train your magic skills.

I always powertrain my spellcasters even before they have over 70 intellegence. It takes a little longer but still isn't that bad.

[xfactor]

I don't see a party of 6 with 4 hybrids ever getting particularly good at magic without a serious amount of power training. Having said that, you should have all the spells you need by the late mid-game.

Damage magic isn't hugely powerful in this game so you'll find that you use the buffs and incapacitating spells more often in the latter parts of the game. Spells like Nuclear Blast and Tsunami are nice when they work but I still find Freeze All, Armormelt and Toxic Cloud to be among the best spells in the game.

You also have to remember that by the end of the game 6 melee characters will be dishing out a lot of damage each round without the help of spells. That should compensate for a lack of damage causing magic.

xfactor