Rugby...the game they play in heaven

Memnoch · 06-09-2001, 06:56 AM

Just came from watching the Australian Wallabies beat the NZ Maoris (as opposed to the national team, the NZ All Blacks) 41-29. The game was up for grabs till about 20 seconds to go.

Anyone follow rugby here?

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antonius · 06-09-2001, 07:02 AM

Heh, you already know the answer to this one

So are Western Australia especially bad, then?

I did have a question though - how do the 2 "codes" compare down under (fan base/quality of play/regional differences etc)?

Memnoch · 06-09-2001, 07:17 AM

2 codes? You mean rugby union and rugby league?

Union, or "rah-rah", tends to be perceived as more of an elite sport, as the bulk of the union players come through the private school system in Australia (or in New South Wales anyway), so you will have a lot of support from fans in the banking and financial sectors. League is more a sport for the everyday punters, IMHO.

League probably had its zenith in Australia about 3 years ago just before the whole Superleague saga. Since then they have lurched from crisis to crisis, while union players have turned professional, thus stemming the flow of players from league to union. Union, if played expansively can be one of the most exciting games to watch, but you just need to look at the first league State of Origin game between NSW and Queensland to know that league can also be a brilliant spectator sport.

And yes, bring on the British Lions.

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antonius · 06-09-2001, 07:28 AM

Pretty similar story here, but it's more of a geography thing.
League is an almost exclusively Yorkshire/Lancashire thing (with regards to premier teams), a "working men's" sport. Even the transition to playing in the summer and giving massive advantages to a London Team (London Broncos) hasn't changed that.

Union is a midlands/south/west country game, still associated with stock-broker types and unfit, overweight booze-heads, and of course the stereotyped rugby-club antics.

Oddly, I prefer union - despite my origin (I went to uni in Leicester though), and even more suprisingly is that union was still taught as _the_ main sport in my school (even in preference to football). I'm now in my mid-twenties, so that was less than 10 years ago. AFAIK it still is a major sport at the school (I stil live locally)

caleb · 06-09-2001, 07:34 AM

You are forgetting the best part the fights! they have no pads or helmets so they hurt the other guy good when they fight and you see the action better

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BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

Memnoch · 06-09-2001, 07:50 AM

Some of those union forwards are pretty bloody tough, but I think the league forwards have it over them in terms of fitness. League forwards have to do a lot more tackling and hitting the ball up than union forwards, who need to be good at scrummaging and rucking as well as lineouts.

The NZ haka is pretty awesome to watch, though ultimately futile (I welcome responses from Azurewolf on this topic.

)

How come you know about union Caleb? What's your Kiwi connection?

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Memnoch · 06-09-2001, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by antonius:

So are Western Australia especially bad, then?

Sorry, I missed this one! Yes, Western Australia are pretty bad. In fact, the only similarity between the Wallabies and Western Australia is that they both start with "W".

Hmm, Wallabies and Winners both start with W - what about Lions and ...

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antonius · 06-09-2001, 07:58 AM

Funniest thing when we played the All-blacks a couple of years ago and England just turned their backs on the Haka. We got accused of insulting the culture.
It's certainly impressive, but it's sport - how would the world feel if we insisted on a 10 minute morris dance before any sporting event?

We had matches 2 years ago between Wigan (League champs) and Leicester (union champs). Played one match under each code's rules. Naturally each team won the "home rules" match. The scores were something like (from memory) 80-10 and 50-10. Was an interesting experiment. Also getting a lot of cross-code players, but only in the backs. You'll see (or rather, won't see) a lot of Jason Robinson this year. I just get the impression that in League all the players are "the same" (physical make-up). Union has more diversity/specialism due to the nature of the game. League players are the better _overall_ athletes IMO.

[This message has been edited by antonius (edited 06-09-2001).]

Memnoch · 06-09-2001, 08:24 AM

Agree with your last point, antonius. Union forwards are a special breed, all the positions are specialized. Hooker needs to be short, squat and powerful for scrummaging and rucking, plus they need to have very strong arms to throw lineout ball. Your props need to be the same build as well, while your secondrowers need to be tall and good at lineouts, as they will be getting most of the ball there. Your flankers need to be very mobile so that they can get to the breakdown quickly and ruck if need be. League forwards on the other hand, need to be fast, mobile and strong defensively as they will be tackling all day. There haven't been many succes stories of union forwards moving to league and vice-versa. The last one of any note here in Australia was Garrick Morgan moving to league (that was a disaster for him).

Backs on the other hand have very similar skills in league and union, they need to be fast, evasive and be able to run into gaps when the ball is run through the backline. Maybe the union backs need to be better at kicking than league backs, as they do a lot more of that for positional play, but league backs are much better defensively IMHO.

Most of the cross-code moves have been from union to league, but in the last year or so some big name league players have moved to union. Andrew Walker is an ex-league player who is now playing for the Wallabies. And from the end of this year, two of the biggest names in league move to union too - Wendell Sailor and Mat Rogers. Jonah Lomu can start getting nervous.

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antonius · 06-09-2001, 08:34 AM

Is Sailor that good..?

I can't actually remember if he did come over here to play (He may have played for Leeds if he did)

Going back 5 years it was union->league, Vai'ga Tuigimala (sp?) was one of the best players in league here for a couple of years. Didn't his brother move here as well? Trend seems to be reversing now. I heard somewhere that the backs prefer playing in union, probably because their skills are so much more defined as we've already discussed, and especially since they get paid now.

Jason Robinson was winger for Wigan, moved to union (Sale) at the start of this season. The fact that he's played in the 6 nations, now on the Lions team says everything.

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06-09-2001, 06:56 AM	#1
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Just came from watching the Australian Wallabies beat the NZ Maoris (as opposed to the national team, the NZ All Blacks) 41-29. The game was up for grabs till about 20 seconds to go. Anyone follow rugby here? ------------------

06-09-2001, 07:02 AM	#2
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	Heh, you already know the answer to this one So are Western Australia especially bad, then? I did have a question though - how do the 2 "codes" compare down under (fan base/quality of play/regional differences etc)?

06-09-2001, 07:17 AM	#3
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	2 codes? You mean rugby union and rugby league? Union, or "rah-rah", tends to be perceived as more of an elite sport, as the bulk of the union players come through the private school system in Australia (or in New South Wales anyway), so you will have a lot of support from fans in the banking and financial sectors. League is more a sport for the everyday punters, IMHO. League probably had its zenith in Australia about 3 years ago just before the whole Superleague saga. Since then they have lurched from crisis to crisis, while union players have turned professional, thus stemming the flow of players from league to union. Union, if played expansively can be one of the most exciting games to watch, but you just need to look at the first league State of Origin game between NSW and Queensland to know that league can also be a brilliant spectator sport. And yes, bring on the British Lions. ------------------

06-09-2001, 07:28 AM	#4
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	Pretty similar story here, but it's more of a geography thing. League is an almost exclusively Yorkshire/Lancashire thing (with regards to premier teams), a "working men's" sport. Even the transition to playing in the summer and giving massive advantages to a London Team (London Broncos) hasn't changed that. Union is a midlands/south/west country game, still associated with stock-broker types and unfit, overweight booze-heads, and of course the stereotyped rugby-club antics. Oddly, I prefer union - despite my origin (I went to uni in Leicester though), and even more suprisingly is that union was still taught as _the_ main sport in my school (even in preference to football). I'm now in my mid-twenties, so that was less than 10 years ago. AFAIK it still is a major sport at the school (I stil live locally)

06-09-2001, 07:34 AM	#5
caleb Horus - Egyptian Sky God Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA, U.S.A. Age: 39 Posts: 2,615	You are forgetting the best part the fights! they have no pads or helmets so they hurt the other guy good when they fight and you see the action better ------------------ BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

06-09-2001, 07:50 AM	#6
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Some of those union forwards are pretty bloody tough, but I think the league forwards have it over them in terms of fitness. League forwards have to do a lot more tackling and hitting the ball up than union forwards, who need to be good at scrummaging and rucking as well as lineouts. The NZ haka is pretty awesome to watch, though ultimately futile (I welcome responses from Azurewolf on this topic. ) How come you know about union Caleb? What's your Kiwi connection? ------------------

06-09-2001, 07:58 AM	#8
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	Funniest thing when we played the All-blacks a couple of years ago and England just turned their backs on the Haka. We got accused of insulting the culture. It's certainly impressive, but it's sport - how would the world feel if we insisted on a 10 minute morris dance before any sporting event? We had matches 2 years ago between Wigan (League champs) and Leicester (union champs). Played one match under each code's rules. Naturally each team won the "home rules" match. The scores were something like (from memory) 80-10 and 50-10. Was an interesting experiment. Also getting a lot of cross-code players, but only in the backs. You'll see (or rather, won't see) a lot of Jason Robinson this year. I just get the impression that in League all the players are "the same" (physical make-up). Union has more diversity/specialism due to the nature of the game. League players are the better _overall_ athletes IMO. [This message has been edited by antonius (edited 06-09-2001).]

06-09-2001, 08:24 AM	#9
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Agree with your last point, antonius. Union forwards are a special breed, all the positions are specialized. Hooker needs to be short, squat and powerful for scrummaging and rucking, plus they need to have very strong arms to throw lineout ball. Your props need to be the same build as well, while your secondrowers need to be tall and good at lineouts, as they will be getting most of the ball there. Your flankers need to be very mobile so that they can get to the breakdown quickly and ruck if need be. League forwards on the other hand, need to be fast, mobile and strong defensively as they will be tackling all day. There haven't been many succes stories of union forwards moving to league and vice-versa. The last one of any note here in Australia was Garrick Morgan moving to league (that was a disaster for him). Backs on the other hand have very similar skills in league and union, they need to be fast, evasive and be able to run into gaps when the ball is run through the backline. Maybe the union backs need to be better at kicking than league backs, as they do a lot more of that for positional play, but league backs are much better defensively IMHO. Most of the cross-code moves have been from union to league, but in the last year or so some big name league players have moved to union. Andrew Walker is an ex-league player who is now playing for the Wallabies. And from the end of this year, two of the biggest names in league move to union too - Wendell Sailor and Mat Rogers. Jonah Lomu can start getting nervous. ------------------

06-09-2001, 08:34 AM	#10
antonius Zhentarim Guard Join Date: May 14, 2001 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 384	Is Sailor that good..? I can't actually remember if he did come over here to play (He may have played for Leeds if he did) Going back 5 years it was union->league, Vai'ga Tuigimala (sp?) was one of the best players in league here for a couple of years. Didn't his brother move here as well? Trend seems to be reversing now. I heard somewhere that the backs prefer playing in union, probably because their skills are so much more defined as we've already discussed, and especially since they get paid now. Jason Robinson was winger for Wigan, moved to union (Sale) at the start of this season. The fact that he's played in the 6 nations, now on the Lions team says everything.

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