18 dead in school shooting in Germany

[Sir Michael]

Why "prayer in school?"

Kids are in school for 6 hours a day...can't they learn about religion and morals and everything from their PARENTS in the other 18 hours when they are not in school? And what about weekends? And where were the parents when these kids were deciding to do this? IMHO, the parents should be held responsible, too. If you are so lax at parenting that your kids go out and do this kind of thing, you are also at fault. The real problem is not with religion, but it is with many of the current generation of parents failing to take the responsibility for the proper care of their kids. There is no discipline any more. Parents are working and not home with them, and when they are home, they plug them in front of the TV, and never interact enough with them to really get involved with their lives and be a true guiding hand. In a study I did last semester in school, I found that the number one way to keep kids off drugs was simple parental involvement in kids lives. Kids have to feel that you are as accessible as their peers. They may not like your control over their lives (as in, you should always know, what they are doing, who they are doing it with, and so on), but they will respect you and understand when they get older.

If kids haven't learned morals at home, there is no way schools can teach them. Besides, don't you think there is enough to fill the time just learning all of the academic subjects?

IMHO, the weakness of religion is that it sets down a series of laws and rules for people to follow (like the Ten Commandments). Human nature being what it is, we all know that rules are made to be broken. The rules are thus externalized, imposed from an outside force, rather than internalized and becoming part of us. The difference is "I believe that it is wrong to kill another human being," (internal belief), versus "The Church (or my faith or God, or whatever) tells me that it is wrong to kill another human being." (external). The real key, whether in a religious or non-religious household is, again, for parents to actively raise their children, and model for them the proper behaviors, morals, and ethics, so they are ingrained in them from a very young age.

As another point, it does parents no good to say one thing and do another. If you don't want your kids to smoke, do drugs, or drink, you can't do any of those either. I know one parent that always tells his kids (young teenagers) where he is going, with whom, and how long he will be gone. Why? Because he expects that behavior from them (and he gets it).

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Neb: I caught a bit of this earlier today, I think that the remaining gunman has barricaded him in a room with a bunch of hostages? This is NOT good. And I believe that morals can be taught in other ways than religion, or at least other ways than CHRISTIAN religion. I'd rather have any children I might once have be taught Wicca in school instead of Christianity.

That's your perogative, of course, but any child of mine will learn my values and faith, which are Christian, and I won't expect the school to teach them right from wrong. That's the parents' job. Schools can reinforce some things, but I don't want them deciding what religious values my kids or I hold especially not if it's against my own beliefs.

I think what some people are trying to say is that holding the belief that murder is wrong is pretty much a universal and perhaps by not allowing it to be mentioned in school it may make a subtle statement to the kids that it isn't wrong.

Now as to the shootings... I'm appalled at what this gunman has done! Was he demanding anything? I feel so bad for the parents and families of those children. NOTHING can be as horrible as what they are dealing with.

This story has just added to the sorrow I was feeling for a local family. The father beat their four month old child to death because it got more attention than he did. Now Mems has told us of this tragedy in Germany and my heart goes out to those who are dealing with it right now.

[ 04-26-2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Melusine]

[quote]Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

I think what some people are trying to say is that holding the belief that murder is wrong is pretty much a universal and perhaps by not allowing it to be mentioned in school it may make a subtle statement to the kids that it isn't wrong.

Uh Amber, there is no school in Germany where it isn't allowed to say murder is wrong

Now as to the shootings... I'm appalled at what these gunmen have done! Are there still children in there as hostages? Is he demanding anything?

The hostage situation is over, the gunman has killed himself as well as seventeen others - there was talk of a second gunman, they're looking into it now, but the survivors are safe.

Here are the most recent BBC articles on what happened.

[Cloudbringer]

Mel, thanks.. LOL I was editing as you posted. I had just read up to date on things!

[Larry_OHF]

When I was a freshman in High-school, two boys were stabbed to death in front of me and some friends because one of the boys commented to the other that that girl's butt looked good in those jeans. Her boyfriend heard about it from a friend of his about two minutes later, and stabbed them. I got blood on my shirt from being so close!

[dominions]

Very sorry to here that this kind of incident has happened again... .

What are gun laws like over in Germany?

[Melusine]

Amber, that's terrible! You often hear that abusive husbands get jealous at their own children, that is truly lower than low

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Melusine: Amber, that's terrible! You often hear that abusive husbands get jealous at their own children, that is truly lower than low

I know.. and well, this story from Germany just added to the general sadness I've felt about all the senseless killing of children.

Last night's story about that 4 mos old was heartbreaking and add to it the fact that it's the 9th child murdered in my area in the last month...

[Kaz]

That is just simply awful. I didn't watch the news today, so this was the first notice I had I'd hoped that with stricter gun laws, this kind of thing wouldn't happen (no, I don't know exactly what the gun laws are here, only that they're a lot stricter than in the US. If I remember correctly, privately owning guns isn't allowed.)

And - to put a stop to the "if they were taught the Ten Commandments this wouldn't have happened" - we *do* have Religion lessons at school. Later you can take Ethics instead, it's basically the same thing but not from a Christian viewpoint. Religion is basically learning about Christianity in the early stages, then deals with subjects like Islam, drugs and sects. In the later stages it is more like Philosophy than any other subject. I'm not sure whether this is in every state or at which ages you have the lessons, though.

[TAOWolf]

Originally posted by Kaz: (If I remember correctly, privately owning guns isn't allowed.)

NO, you can privately own guns, I do....just certain types of guns are banned for private ownership. But there are grey areas to this as well, I own an SKS semi-automatic for ranch use, and those are banned now, but if you already owned one before the ban, you can keep it, just not sell it....and ammo is HARD to find.