Deathmatch: F/D dual vs. F/D multi

[pritchke]

I kind of liked dual slightly better as well, I do like getting the higher spells quicker so I usually go with F(6)/D(x). This is my perference while others like to level up there fighters more.

[Dundee Slaytern]

But ZFR,

Aerich is doing it in HoF, and I made my post with the understanding that we are comparing the dual versus the multi in HoF.

Even I am not so enarmoured with multis that I would kill myself with them on Core with a full party.

The reason why a multi would be better than a dualed F(2)->D(30) is simple enough,

..) Both will max out spells anyway but-
..) The multi will have more life
..) The multi will have better THAC0 (even if you GM the dual)
..) The multi will have better saving throws

When the dual maxes out, the multi will be F(18)/D(19)

This means that the multi has more or less peaked with his Fighter class, while his Druid side is only lacking in the Lvl5/6/7 spells.

6/4/2 slots compared to 9/9/8 slots.

The thing here is... the multi is only going to get better... and better, while the dual has stagnated.

This is the reason why I mentioned that you need to do an extreme dual, like 21->30 extreme, in order to compete with the multi.

Additionally, I would like to add that in my playstyle, I only give Slings to my Druids for the heck of it, so that they have something to play with in between their spellcastings. Most of the spells they use, especially summoning, takes up a turn to cast, so they end up with no time to sling anyway, unless the battle drags on really, really long( which is very possible on HoF).

The only time my Druids actively wade into combat to beat the brains out of enemies( if they have any, else we just beat them up for the fun of it), is when he gains the Water Elemental shapeshift. Immunity to Slashing rocks, and with the aid of Dispel Magic, I can make bumrush in and poke the bad people to death.

THAC0, ApR and damage is meaningless in this instance, because your Druid is IMMUNED, so it does not matter whether or not he takes 30s( if he was dualed) or 40s( if he was multi) to kill them. He WILL win in the end.

Most of the killing blows are dealt by my Paladin, my Fighter/Thief( Messenger of Seth rules all), and my summons.

[Ultra Marine]

In Hof, gets 250k exp after complete the tomb.
In Insane, gets 250k somewhere near the end of DE.

Based on waiting time, I would prefer to dual a f(3)/Druid(x) in Insane. The game easier with more druid spells early. Since, battles are shorter, the druid is used for summons/offensive spells and they don't really engage in battle.

In HoF, one should be able to get a f(9)/Druid(x) after the tomb. I can't remember where you get f(13)/Druid(x) but its pretty quick. Lesser waiting time for those who like dual.

But i find the multi f/d spell progression good enough in HoF and you can't get off easy without entangles.

[ZFR]

OK Dundee, I admit the multi could be better in HoF.

But since I haven't completed it I can't say much about the point of maxing out, and how long (and at which stage of the game) is the dual going to better than multi before multi catches up.
Once I finish my game I'd be able to make up my mind better.

[Roboghost]

I've played them both, but HoF calls for the MC F/D over the DC F/D.

He/She is your offensive spell caster and front guard to the weak back characters. Can take advantage of all those points in HoF (as was pointed out.) Then there is the fun factor - letting loose the cool spells, but a DC just tosses rocks [since you probably didn't roll a very good STR -- they probably suck at this as well as being a fighter!] They will get ** in ALL Druid weapons and be able to wear full armor and shield at all times {there will be a period when your DC Druid can't do this!}

A MC should be able to roll a decent STR. Never roll less then this (and it shouldn’t take too much time):

18/76+
18
18
7 (not too dumb)
18
15

I have a harder time with my Paladin or Bard roll then this guy/gal.

[Klorox]

I like multiclassing. The additional ApR from the Fighter levels always help, whether using a sling or shapeshifted.

I suppose becoming a Grandmaster in Slings and dual-classing to Druid after Fighter level 13 would be most powerful (I don't think a Druid should melee either, and if they do, it should be in a shapeshifted form like an elemental).

BTW, do the natural attacks of any of the shapeshifted forms use any weapon proficiencies?

[Aerich]

@ Roboghost - you do realize that your "not too hard to roll" MC druid stats total 94 points? That's high, man. [img]graemlins/bonghit.gif[/img] I wouldn't worry about the Str, because Str-increasing spells and potions should bridge the gap until you can get the set Str items - Girdle of Stromnos and Gauntlets of Ogre Power. There's actually about 4 sets of the ogre gauntlets around in HoW/TotL.

@ Klorox - I'm quite sure that the natural attacks of shapeshifted forms do NOT use any weapon proficiencies. Number one, none are offered, number two, it doesn't make conceptual sense for the game that an animal (or whatever) needs special training in its natural weaponry. There isn't a weapon proficiency for fists, for example. Simple way to test? Just look at the Thaco on the record screen when shapeshifted.

I certainly lean to the F/D mc as well, particularly because I play only the high difficulty levels. The F/D dc made more sense xp-wise before HoW and TotL were added (although it lacked many of the good offensive spells). The druid has great offensive spells, but not much in the way of good caster-only (or party) buffs. Both the F/M and F/C are better at the melee caster role. The one critical part of the druid in melee is Static Charge, but you can get the benefits of that by casting or shooting near the front lines, without being in them. The F/D is well-suited to being the third melee option, whether it is mc or dc, and grandmastery etc isn't really necessary for a third option fighter.

[Roboghost]

Yea...my roll is a bit high for a MC F/D, but you need high rolls for HoF!

Increasing STR is a nuisance during the game unless it comes to the big battles -- then it's worth the extra time to chug a potion in preparation. Strength items are nice, but the gauntlets of ogre strength come in HoW [and not until later even then], so it's not worth the nerf of STR for your MC F/D in HoF.

I'm giving it a whirl without my usual Paladin and archer...going more priest power this round and letting my Bard give credence [singing] to the first two ranks (guarding the 3rd rank - which will generally stay the hell out of combat and do what they do best - tossing mage spells, scouting, and singing):

1st} Dwarf Fighter
1st} Gnome Fighter/Cleric (N)
2nd} Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric (G)
2nd} Half-Elf Fighter/Druid
3rd} Elf Mage/Thief
3rd} Half-Elf Bard

[Klorox]

@Aerich: I didn't say it'd make any sense, I was just wondering (stranger things have happened in these games). [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Klorox: @Aerich: I didn't say it'd make any sense, I was just wondering (stranger things have happened in these games). [img]tongue.gif[/img]

True, true. Logic or illogic has nothing to do with what is and isn't included in the game. Next time I'm shapechanged, I'll look at the Thaco, but I'm sure I would have noticed if the adjusted Thaco was lowered for lack of proficiency in "natural" weapons.

@ Roboghost - My 15 Str mc F/D and 15 Str dc F/D aren't doing too badly on HoF. It's nice to have the high Str stat, but it's not totally necessary. My mc has over a quarter of the party kills, and the dc is about 15% - just finished DE. The Strength spell lasts for an hour per level of caster, so one memorization per rest period is enough for the dc. The mc only spends about 20% of the time slinging, so the Str isn't a great loss for her. When slinging, she usually hits Webbed enemies anyway.

I get impatient trying to get rolls of 90+; trying to get 94 stat points AND a Str roll of at least 18/76 is pretty mind-numbing.