What has Saddam actually done?

[Desdicado]

No one is saying saddam is a nice guy, but what has he actually done?. and what is he planning?. Absolutely nothing seems to be the answer. If america wants a war aginst iraq for its own reasons (oil?) or as usual to support israel in some way then it at least aught to be honest about why it is doing it.
the full might of american military intelligence has unearthed not one single WOMD and not one link to al queda.

There are equally or more evil regimes in the world that america does nothing about, so why pick on iraq?.
One of the greatest violators of human rights in the region is israel, but the US won't hear a word against them will it?.I personally am very annoyed that the British PM is supporting this, as the majority of British people are against it.

Originally posted by Desdicado: No one is saying saddam is a nice guy, but what has he actually done?. and what is he planning?. Absolutely nothing seems to be the answer. If america wants a war aginst iraq for its own reasons (oil?) or as usual to support israel in some way then it at least aught to be honest about why it is doing it. the full might of american military intelligence has unearthed not one single WOMD and not one link to al queda. There are equally or more evil regimes in the world that america does nothing about, so why pick on iraq?. One of the greatest violators of human rights in the region is israel, but the US won't hear a word against them will it?.I personally am very annoyed that the British PM is supporting this, as the majority of British people are against it.

1. Used Bio and Chemical weapons against Iran
2. Used Chemical and Bio weapons against the Kurds and his own people.
3. Invaded Kuwait
4. Torched the fields of kuwait endangering the environment of surrounding nations.
5. Failed to disarm as required by the cease fire agreement that Saddam signed in 1991
6. Started re-arming and importing weapons since the cease fire and his agreement to disarm
7. Has actively sought weapons and materials of Mass Destruction
8. Has also made available to terror organizations aid and comfort
9. He poses a real threat of selling bio, chemical and possibly nuclear materials to terror organization.

Thats just a quick list off the top of my head. You might try reading the news now and then, all this stuff has been well documented over the last 12 years.

Edit: so who are you really? Your member # seems to indicate that we used to know you under another guise. Im just curious [img]smile.gif[/img] 948 is a pretty low number.

[ 02-28-2003, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Chewbacca]

I think the real question is what has Saddam done since 1991 and why does that justify unleashing one of man's most destructive and terrible things being war in a region that is itself divided about the action. Unpopular and expensive.

We have know Saddam was an evil dictator for a long time, if we didn't need to attack since 1991, then we don't need to now as far as that argument goes.

I could argue against the war all-night but I'd rather play some vidoegames!

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I think the real question is what has Saddam done since 1991 and why does that justify unleashing one of man's most destructive and terrible things being war in a region that is itself divided about the action. Unpopular and expensive. We have know Saddam was an evil dictator for a long time, if we didn't need to attack since 1991, then we don't need to now as far as that argument goes. I could argue against the war all-night but I'd rather play some vidoegames!

Umm read the list I just posted...sheesh, most of that stuff is SINCE 1991.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I think the real question is what has Saddam done since 1991 and why does that justify unleashing one of man's most destructive and terrible things being war in a region that is itself divided about the action. Unpopular and expensive. We have know Saddam was an evil dictator for a long time, if we didn't need to attack since 1991, then we don't need to now as far as that argument goes. I could argue against the war all-night but I'd rather play some vidoegames!

Umm read the list I just posted...sheesh, most of that stuff is SINCE 1991.[/QUOTE]Well, first off your list is just that, a list of reasons one could go to war with Saddam. With-out any facts to back them up they lack any strength as, well, facts.

these in particular:

6. Started re-arming and importing weapons since the cease fire and his agreement to disarm 7. Has actively sought weapons and materials of Mass Destruction 8. Has also made available to terror organizations aid and comfort 9. He poses a real threat of selling bio, chemical and possibly nuclear materials to terror organization.

I have yet to see it specifically clarifed why Iraq should be targeted for war for these reasons. I have heard suspicion and speculation of renewed womd production and transgressions against other nations and his own of decades past. As I recall Saddam's support of terrorism is limited to aiding palestinians, some of whom are terrorists. Then again so do alot of arab states.

I know that with satellite surveillance, U2 flights, recon-drones, continued Iraqi "cooperation" and, scores of U.N. inspectors that if Iraq did pose a threat to anyone after 1991 then the world would know about it now in a certain, identifiable way. That is not the case. Iraq is not an imminent threat.

I have no reason to distrust the inspectors working in Iraq now either. They appear to have the task at hand and definite authority as well. They seem content on helping squeeze Iraq out of any proof Iraq has to offer or not offer. I say let them do their jobs, empower them as much as needed, then judge the over-all effectiveness of them.

Why not have war be the last solution in the face of an imminent threat?

We are talking about alot of lives and livelyhood at stake in war.

I understand the reasons Bush and Blair want a war in Iraq, I just think there are far more better reasons not too! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yikes! I am going to stop while I am ahead on this topic! [img]smile.gif[/img] I really would like any links to events that support some of those reasons for war.

[Sir Taliesin]

Number 9 on Majik's list is the most important one there is!

9. He poses a real threat of selling bio, chemical and possibly nuclear materials to terror organization.
(sorry Majik, I can't figure out the color you use!)

In my mind, at least, that is a good enough reason to take him out and disarm Iraq.

All you out there that think Bush and the US want the oil, did you ever stop and think maybe Bush has decided he is not going to let another 9/11 happen on his watch? Maybe that's why he sees Iraq as so dangerous. If we'd wanted the oil we'd have kepted it in 1991. And we could have made a deal with Sodomy to let the oil flow anytime we wanted to after the Gulf War, with no threat of causities. I don't buy the oil theory. The time for talking has almost past.

[The Hierophant]

Not that I think it's true, but the 'oil theory' doesn't really pertain to 'America' taking the oil so much as it involves individual parties securing oil contracts and exhorbitant shares in the oil profits and adding the booty to their own personal stashes. This doens't just involve Americans of course, there'll be smiley hand-wringers all over the globe itchin' to get a piece o' that fat, juicy, oily Iraqi pie [img]smile.gif[/img] An American President can have 8 years in office at most, but the personal wealth secured by these sorts of operations will last them the rest of their lives, it's a pretty sweet deal really. Do I have evidence? No. I don't have anything but my relentless cynicism to back up my claims. But the rich have to stay rich somehow, I guess I just assume the worst about 'these sorts of people'.
Now, many seem to believe Bush is 'one of the people', and hell, maybe he even is, but from where I'm sitting, from an outside perspective, he's duping a whole lot of Americans into serving the aims of himself and his circle. Make no mistake, there is far too much concentrated wealth in America for a real democracy to ever exist. The rich are getting richer, and the poor are thinking they're fighting for freedom. Conspiracy theory? Definately.

Desdicado, just don't trust any of those smiley-faced slingers of sweet-talk, whatever nationality they are. Stick with your friends and family and you'll do just fine. In other words, learn how to fight, but don't join the army!

[ 03-01-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Chewie every one of my points is FACT. Even the UN has acknowledged this. He tried to get Uranium from Africa, US, and NATO ships have intercepted dozens of ships trying to smuggle parts and materials into the country and last week it was announced in the papers that a German company has been selling Iraq banned items that can be used in weapons projects. You wanted facts. I gave them...then you ignore them and say they are not facts. I can do no more. You wish to remain blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to Iraq's actions and yet whole heartedly believe every conspiracy theory about the US. It is useless to discuss anything about this with you. So at least I tried. Take it easy guy.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Chewie every one of my points is FACT. Even the UN has acknowledged this. He tried to get Uranium from Africa, US, and NATO ships have intercepted dozens of ships trying to smuggle parts and materials into the country and last week it was announced in the papers that a German company has been selling Iraq banned items that can be used in weapons projects. You wanted facts. I gave them...then you ignore them and say they are not facts. I can do no more. You wish to remain blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to Iraq's actions and yet whole heartedly believe every conspiracy theory about the US. It is useless to discuss anything about this with you. So at least I tried. Take it easy guy.

Dude, I just wanted see some back-up to your list. Backing out of a discussion because it's "useless" is not presenting any facts, nor does it clarify why these facts justify all-out war. You gave a neat little list with nothing to back it up.

AND I DO NOT BELIEVE WHOLE HEARTEDLY IN ANY CONSPIRACY THEORY, though I do enjoy speculation, being a story-teller and all, it is food for the imagination.

Your trying to make this debate personal by saying I'm deaf, blind and dumb to the facts and calling me a conspiracy theorist in spite of the fact you have offered nothing else to back up your claims here.

As usually the pro-war debate is lacking any real substance...a bunch of name-calling and smoke and mirrors...typical.

[Sir Taliesin]

And neither does the Anti-war debate. It's mostly touchy feely stuff and people trying like hell to hide their heads in the sand, hoping it'll just go away. That's not how you solve problems. The squeeky wheel gets the oil or so I've always heard. Well the squeeky wheel is Saddam. He's had twelve long years to dis-arm and he's not done it yet and he won't usless it's at the point of a bayonet! Now the US is applying the oil with a match to follow!