Lord of the Rings - Off Topic

[Acid]

I think I said that he used old folksaga (this would be celtic and scandinavian) when creating Middle Earth. He did bind together different races and the relations between them. Orcs, hobbits, trolls, elves, dwarves, dragons etc are used in moders fantasy literature much in the same way Tolkien did. Compared to old folklore there are many differences and some races are Tolkien's creations. As far as I know there are no pre-Tolkien fantasy novels/books with all that historical, geographical and racial background combined with magic and the classic Good vs Evil concept we are used to in a fantasy title. Tolkien may have been inspired by other authors but he was the first to combine everything into what is called fantasy literature.

Oh, btw, I found some info about the publishing of LOtR:

Originally published by Allen & Unwin in 1954-55 and by HM in 1955-56; revised edition in 1965; sometimes published as one volume but generally as three.

[Acid]

Yes, German mythology aswell. But it is important to understand that these mythological creatures were quite different from Tolkien's. They were different in different parts of Europe aswell. Tolkien kind of 'standardised' them.

[Yorick]

George MacDonald had 'Lilith' published in 1895.

[Acid]

There are elements in Lilith that are close to what is considered fantasy literature, however the story is not as mythological as Tolkien's and the world is not as fantasy-like. There is not much in the genre that would be based on Lilith that wouldn't be from any ferrytail. I consider Alice in Wonderland to be an offspring of Lilith (a basic parallell universe saga), the fantasy genre is based upon Tolkien's world and concept.

Lilith is just another source of inspiration for Tolkien, like the Bible or Kalevala but again I say, Tolkien combined all sources and created a standard for what we call fantasy literature.

[Zoratorak]

hmm.... i have read the Lord of the Rings and that is that... i do have to admit that his style of writing seems to have bore me but when i shook that attitutde off i have to admit that it was quite interesting... my friends say that he is good because he was the one he revolutionized the writing to the present... i gotta admit that when reading older novels ... those are the ones that made me fall asleep... so Lord of the Rings isnt so bad then...

hmm... i seem to be out of touch with the cool movies now... heck i didnt know there was even a movie about this nor D&D... then i saw the advertisment... "premiere/ comming soon" sheesh... talkin about out of touch... oh well... this would be quite exciting that so many fantasy movies are finally comming out...

ps: hey Yorick do you really love to make a statement that grows into a argument... (just askin)

Tolkien can be longvinding and slow in his writing, sometimes even boring. Especially in the begining of lotr i just think he takes the scenery descriptions a bit to far.

Please dont kill me yet.
I thank the gods i had read the Hobbit first so i knew lotr just had to be better so i kept reading and finally just loved it and has read it over and over and over and...

[Acid]

Arak, my thoughts exactly.

[Yorick]

Acid,
C.S.Lewis writes that MacDonald's strength lay in his Mythmaking, so on that note I'd have to disagree. Besides I think you're missing the point. My main problem with your statement was "he did it from scratch". You're not allowing for the influences such as MacDonald, the Myths and most importantly the "INKLINGS".

Why have you not responded to that point? Tolkien had contemporaries who shared ideas, arguably the most significant being C.S.Lewis. The main difference between the two was that Lewis' Narnia Chronicles were allegorical. The group shared ideas and works in progress. Who knows what unpublished brain helped him on his way.

Of course Tolkien is a major influence of writers, but a lot of good ones will say they've gone straight to the source. I believe either Fiest or Eddings to be an example of that. You're also not acknowledging how an idea develops, yet by your own admission you've said he mined sagas and folklore.

Well let me put it this way. If he did not invent Dwarves, Trolls, Goblins, Giants (which he renamed orcs after the Hobbit) Elves and the like, if he did not invent the concept of another world, as Tyr nan Og, Lilliput, MacDonald's realms and other magic fanciful lands existed in folklore, if he did not invent the myth-kin plot development, if he did not invent poetry, what did he do?

He wove the strands together, made a new hybrid of the influences that surrounded him and stamped his personality through a brilliant work. I'm ever thankful that he did, but refuse to deify him or ignore the creative process when giving accolades.

No human can create ex-nihlo - or from nothing. We all draw from our sources and create, as I mentioned a new hybrid. It is a latent potential within us all, and through actively increasing your influences - not as unattainable as it may seem. To suggest otherwise is to limit your own development as a creative being before you have begun. It is out of this concern that I write.

Anyway has anyone read Steven Donaldsons Thomas Covenent series? Another brilliant work, I found the emotional journey the most significant of any fantasy book I've read, and the notion of a Leper as the main character very original.

I found the plot develpment of the Fiests Riftwar Saga to be the most complex and multi pathed. Very interesting.

Acid, thanks for 'hearing me out'. I'm sure you'll have some disagreement but then Viva la difference!

[Yorick]

Acid,
I must have missed the last line in yr post that said "Tolkien combined all sources and created a standard for what we call fantasy literature."

It seems we're possibly not disagreeing in some areas as much as it seems.

To take a cynical view I'd even suggest it's the publishers who've set such a standard if everyones followed Tolkien as you've suggested.

"No no, you need to have a sojourn! They can't all stay at home! How will they see your world"
"Oh they'll hear about it from town criers"
"Well Tolkien never did that! I'm sorry I won't publish it as is."

Heh sorry Yorick but the stories about that whining, nogood, pathetic Thomas Covenant is probably the worst i have ever read. Although it did get better with time.
Hmmmmm, maybe it's just me having troubles with beginings?!?

As to Tolkien being the creator of fantasy as we see it today i dont think theres one fantasy writer out there who isn't influenced by Tolkien, and ask almost anyone what any of those mythical creatures are and they'll give you the Tolkien description. But the fantasy world is just that, fantasy, and every writer has an idea of his/hers.

If none of this makes sense its coz i'm really tired and just want to go home and have a cold beer.