People overreacting on Twin Tower?

[Donut]

Nation states rarely involve themselves in problems unless it's in their national interest. Intervention in Kosovo was one exception. The UN humanitarian intervention in Somalia and the ongoing safe haven policy in Northern Iraq is another.

The second world war was not fought because Germany invaded Poland. It was fought because German expansion threatened the balance of power in Europe and thereby the economic and strategic interests of Britain. The USA became involved because of the Japanese attack and because of the uncertain future of the USA both physically and economically in a future where the Axis Governments controlled two thirds of the world.

Of course, apart from this the physical security of the United States has rarely been threatened. Wars or police actions have been undertaken for a number of reasons. The Gulf War was fought for economic reasons, action has been taken in Korea, Vietnam,, and Grenada, amongst others to prevent the spread of communism. I fully expect the next intervention to be in Columbia.

British soldiers are currenly peace keeping in Sierra Leone and have suffered casualties there. I don't for one moment think we are there to protect the people - that's just a by product. We are there to preserve our influence in Africa.

I am not denigrating the sacrifices made by military personnel in any of these actions. They go where they are told to go and do what they are told to do. But let's think about the reasons behind the reasons. It is generally to maintain our position in the world order and the people who benefit most are the rich and the powerful and the multinationals.

I agree that it is time for the European nations to take responsibility for themselves in Europe and this is being addressed. I have one question to ask those who advocate American isolationism and the withdrawal of US bases around the world.

Will you be needing the US bases in Britain this weekend to land a few B52's?

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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!

Azure, are there similar incidents of the scope we just saw yesterday that I haven't heard about?? I hear rather loud cries to help out overseas whenever there are terrible disasters, BILLIONS (that billions with a B mind you) In food, goods, money and human volunteers respond to crisis' world wide from this country when there is a need. Do our news organizations spend hundreds of thousands of dollars advertising that 4 people in afghanistan died when their pig fell off a cliff and they tried to save it? Nooooo but does it really call for a world wide gasp of shock? I would also like to ask, when was the last time you have heard of ANY other country sending our people aid when oh say an earthquake nearly leveled LA? Quit knocking a country that has repeatedly been there to help around the wolrs just because we don't put every incident world wide, on the news. We know that tragedys happen ...we do hear about them...and Id say we are way ahead of the curve in responding to them. When some other nation is looked to more often for help around the wolr then complain we aren't doing enough.

Whew....why do you people make me post like this???



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Memnoch: You guys have an interesting thread with differing points of view here - keep your cool and don't spoil it for yourselves, ok? I'd hate so see another great thread possibly go to waste.

Exactly why I won't respond to Silver Cheetah.

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"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Originally posted by Donut: Nation states rarely involve themselves in problems unless it's in their national interest. Intervention in Kosovo was one exception. The UN humanitarian intervention in Somalia and the ongoing safe haven policy in Northern Iraq is another. The second world war was not fought because Germany invaded Poland. It was fought because German expansion threatened the balance of power in Europe and thereby the economic and strategic interests of Britain. The USA became involved because of the Japanese attack and because of the uncertain future of the USA both physically and economically in a future where the Axis Governments controlled two thirds of the world. Of course, apart from this the physical security of the United States has rarely been threatened. Wars or police actions have been undertaken for a number of reasons. The Gulf War was fought for economic reasons, action has been taken in Korea, Vietnam,, and Grenada, amongst others to prevent the spread of communism. I fully expect the next intervention to be in Columbia. British soldiers are currenly peace keeping in Sierra Leone and have suffered casualties there. I don't for one moment think we are there to protect the people - that's just a by product. We are there to preserve our influence in Africa. I am not denigrating the sacrifices made by military personnel in any of these actions. They go where they are told to go and do what they are told to do. But let's think about the reasons behind the reasons. It is generally to maintain our position in the world order and the people who benefit most are the rich and the powerful and the multinationals. I agree that it is time for the European nations to take responsibility for themselves in Europe and this is being addressed. I have one question to ask those who advocate American isolationism and the withdrawal of US bases around the world. Will you be needing the US bases in Britain this weekend to land a few B52's?

Donut You over look one very very important fact. It takes the support of the nation for a President to declare war. While he as an individual may have financial concerns, the only way the US could get involved was to find a way to impress on the US populace as a whole that it was the GOOD and RIGHT thing to do. While the government may have declared war in a fit of self interest the Populations enthusiasticly went to war to stop the aggression and to SAVE the innocents that were being slaughterd by the Axis powers, no matter the political motives. Ask a US World War II vet why he endangerd his life to fight that war and he will reply 9 times out of 10 "It was the Right thing to do" in this context Right = moral.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by AzureWolf: I just feel IMO that the coverage and indignation of what happened would not have been on such a grandoise scale had it been anywhere BUT America. This is not American bashing but acts like this though on a lesser scale happen all the time and they barely get a mention. If it had happened in the middle east it would barely get a passing glance because the middle east is known for its terroist acts. But does that lessen the tradgedy of what happened? The people who died do not getg worldwide sympathy and 24 hour news coverage simply because they are in the wrong country?

I have to disagree. If the World Trade Center was based in Europe, Australia, Japan, or even the middle east, this tragedy would have been given just as much coverage on a world-wide level. It was not soley Americans who had interest there...it was the world. Many foreign countries had banks set up in that building...to think that this does not affect them on a financial as well as an emotional level is (politely) blind.

There have been many acts on a lesser scale that have not gotten 24 hour coverage, but keep in mind that this was not a small scale attack, nor an attack on just Americans. International companies lost their businesses and the lives of potentially thousands of their people as well. It cannot even be compared to a car bombing outside any local government office in any country, Oklahoma City included.

As a couple of examples, I do remember almost non-stop coverage for days on end when earthquakes nearly leveled Mexico City and India, killing tens of thousands in both incidents. This country did not turn a blind eye. Our corporations flew medical teams, medical supplies as well as food and water by the tons to help out.
Natural tragedies and ones incited by terrorism are not separated by any level of importance...any tragedy on this scale that affects one country or the whole world get noticed.

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!



[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Redblueflare]

No I don't think they're overreacting at all. I don't think it's fair that people in their own county overlook tragedies like this in others. It's *different* when it happens to your own your front door step. I know that sounds like crap, but that's just the way it is.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just don't have to listen.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Donut You over look one very very important fact. It takes the support of the nation for a President to declare war. While he as an individual may have financial concerns, the only way the US could get involved was to find a way to impress on the US populace as a whole that it was the GOOD and RIGHT thing to do.

I agree MagiK, but there are ways and means of getting the people on your side. We can be manipulated you know. That's why I spoke of 'the reasons behind the reasons'. They will appeal to our patriotism, ourt nationalism, our sense of right and wrong. Whichever way you look at it we fought the Gulf War to protect our oil supplies not to save the Kuwaitis.

Are you aware of the influence of the British Secret Service on the American people to encourage the US entry into WWII

BTW - I'm not an expert in US politics but is it Congress or the President who declares war?. I believe that the US has only declared war 5 times since the Declaration of Independence.


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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!

[This message has been edited by Donut (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: I just feel IMO that the coverage and indignation of what happened would not have been on such a grandoise scale had it been anywhere BUT America. This is not American bashing but acts like this though on a lesser scale happen all the time and they barely get a mention. If it had happened in the middle east it would barely get a passing glance because the middle east is known for its terroist acts. But does that lessen the tradgedy of what happened? The people who died do not getg worldwide sympathy and 24 hour news coverage simply because they are in the wrong country?

I disagree. If anything of this scale had happened anywhere in the world they would get attention. Witness the earthquake in India. The suicide bombings in the Middle East. The violence in Zimbabwe. To be fair to the US, the majority of commercial broadcasters are from the US - CNN, CNBC, ABC. It is not unreasonable to expect national broadcasters to focus more on their own nation more so than others. Just look at the recent Goodwill Games in Brisbane. All I saw Channel 9 televise was the swimming - for an entire week. No mention of any other sports.



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[Donut]

Originally posted by Liliara: And Cloudy, please don't lump all Americans in your comments of us being more interested in sports than in world news. It IS there. If you are individually not interested, that's your choice.

Of course it is impossible to generalise about a population of over 260 million but my experience of Americans that I have met in America is that they are extremely ignorant of the world outside the US. One of the benefits of a board like this is that I get to read posts from Americans that are obviously well informed about world events. The news is there but you have to go out of your way to find it.

I met a man in Richmond, Virgina who, when he learned I was from London said that it must be great living on the coast!

I met a woman on a bus between New York and Indianapolis who thought England was the capital of Europe.

In contrast I met a barman in Tucaho, New York who was extremely well informed and with whom I spent many an hour debating world politics.

I'm afraid that the majority of Americans show little or no interest in world affairs.

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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it!

[This message has been edited by Donut (edited 09-13-2001).]

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Liliara: And Cloudy, please don't lump all Americans in your comments of us being more interested in sports than in world news. It IS there. If you are individually not interested, that's your choice.

Lil, darlin'...Um, that wasn't Cloudy, that was Dio. *small *

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"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

"I'm INVINCIBLE! ... You're a LOONEY!"

Dare to dream. Be bold enough to try.

The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)