Shall we go back to the ice ages?

[Belle]

Wow, well I didn't think that my rant would awaken so many feelins and opinions. I feel oh so special now, lol. I do have some interesting facts about the company me and Azred work for though. There are no women tm (territorial managers) that work for Sally's Beauty Supply. The handful of women dm's (district managers) and there are very few of them are judged very harshly. All the vp's are men and besides hr, all the minor positions such as secretary and such are filled by women. What do I think? I have cooled down about my situation, but I do still feel that women get the lower side of life sometimes just because of our gender. Let me remind you that women have a pain threshold nine times greater than a man. Women push babies out everyday, could a man? I doubt it? Not to mention period and all that comes along with them. So, we may get paid less, and get less respect, but I do think, no, I know, that we have some definite advantages over men, physical and mental. But for the record, I love Azred, specifically because he is a male. They (males) definitely have something us females can't live without, .....paychecks. What? Did you think I was going to say something else?
Belle (half of very happy Azred)

[IAmThumper]

You want feelings and opinions then you should check out pages 2-8 of this topic!(ask Cloudbringer! LOL)

One could argue that the reason that the "minor" positions such as secretary are filled solely by women is that society(men and women!) makes fun of males in that role. Can you honestly say you would be proud to tell everyone that your boyfriend is a secretary? or seamster? Sure the lesser wage might be the biggest factor as to why men don't become secretaries but you can't say this isn't a factor.
It follows that if only women are in these "minor" roles then there will be less women available to pursue the management jobs and the average womens wage is going to be smaller than mens.
Men get the short end of the stick in other aspects of society which you would see if you were a guy and if the media wasn't so feminist controlled.
I really hate it when women play the pregnancy/child birth card. "Oh the pain!" If I could "pump" out babies I would do it without hesitation even without a so called nine times pain threshold (which I don't believe)! The fact is women ARE the ones who have the children. It's not my fault!
I would feel so much more sorry for you if I didn't believe you completely ignored Thorans post.
The fact is all you are doing is ranting and I don't want to hear your male bashing! I once yelled at a boss of mine who made sexist comments and I once had a boss who slapped his girlfriends and almost fed him a fist sandwich! Do something about it or quit your ranting.

[harleyquinn]

Originally posted by Thoran: I also know women who think men aren't as capable... sexism is a two way street. My mother in law is a Dean at a university down south, earlier in her career (when she was a Director at a NYS University) she specifically excluded men from her team because she felt they were disruptive to the atmosphere... and she was quite unapolagetic about it. Back in the boom days for telecom I was involved in recruiting talent for my group (an engineering group of a F500 multinational) and I know for a fact that talented women and minorities were getting offers SIGNIFICANTLY higher than men with the same qualifications. I was told by a female grad at campus recruiting visit that she expected to get an offer that amounted to about 20% higher than the median starting for MSEE's... and I have no doubt she got it. I have no doubt that in these PC days for every female story of isolated discrimination (some guy thinks I can't do the job) there's an equivelant story of institutional discrimination against a guy (a less qualified woman was promoted over me to improve our manegerial diversity numbers).

Read my post again, Thoran, I did say that there are woman who think that other woman are not capable. I never made it a black and white issue, I simply was saying that the fact that there are problems is not a myth.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by harleyquinn: Read my post again, Thoran, I did say that there are woman who think that other woman are not capable. I never made it a black and white issue, I simply was saying that the fact that there are problems is not a myth.

Yes you did... you hit two of the four possible permutations.
"Men think women not as capable."
"Women think women not as capable."

I added another:
"Women think men not as capable." - it's happening more and more these days,
and I didn't add the final category "men think men not as capable" because while it does happen I'm willing to admit it doesn't happen as often (of course you could say the same of "women think women not as capable")

I also was not saying the issue was black and white, I was saying that the problems go both directions.

[ 09-10-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Belle: Wow, well I didn't think that my rant would awaken so many feelins and opinions. I feel oh so special now, lol. I do have some interesting facts about the company me and Azred work for though. There are no women tm (territorial managers) that work for Sally's Beauty Supply. The handful of women dm's (district managers) and there are very few of them are judged very harshly. All the vp's are men and besides hr, all the minor positions such as secretary and such are filled by women. What do I think? I have cooled down about my situation, but I do still feel that women get the lower side of life sometimes just because of our gender. Let me remind you that women have a pain threshold nine times greater than a man. Women push babies out everyday, could a man? I doubt it? Not to mention period and all that comes along with them. So, we may get paid less, and get less respect, but I do think, no, I know, that we have some definite advantages over men, physical and mental. But for the record, I love Azred, specifically because he is a male. They (males) definitely have something us females can't live without, .....paychecks. What? Did you think I was going to say something else? Belle (half of very happy Azred)

If what you say is true regarding your company than they are in danger of being sued... because discrimination against women is illegal. Our government has gone out of it's way to establish reams of law intended to protect women as they gain an equal footing in the workplace. I think that on the whole this legislation was necessary to break down the barriars to entry for women in the workplace, but now I feel it's time for women to stop complaining if things aren't going their way and DO something about it... the law is on your side and if your case has merit no doubt LOTS of civil rights lawyers will JUMP at the opportunity to stick it to big business.

They (females) definitely have something us men can't live without, ....???.... Hmm... let me think.... ahhh... no not that... umm... jeeze there must be something...

(ps.. I know you were joking, as am I... I've been with my wife for 10 years and while it's been tough, mutual reliance and respect has been the key to our survival)

[ 09-10-2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Azred]

Originally posted by IAmThumper: One could argue that the reason that the "minor" positions such as secretary are filled solely by women is that society(men and women!) makes fun of males in that role. Can you honestly say you would be proud to tell everyone that your boyfriend is a secretary? or seamster? Sure the lesser wage might be the biggest factor as to why men don't become secretaries but you can't say this isn't a factor. Belle is proud of me no matter what I do. She's wonderful that way. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] Men get the short end of the stick in other aspects of society which you would see if you were a guy and if the media wasn't so feminist controlled. [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] Feminist controlled? [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] Not when the vast majority of news anchors are male. I really hate it when women play the pregnancy/child birth card. "Oh the pain!" If I could "pump" out babies I would do it without hesitation even without a so called nine times pain threshold (which I don't believe)! The fact is women ARE the ones who have the children. It's not my fault! Be careful what you wish for. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] Besides, no one is blaming you...no need to defend yourself. I would feel so much more sorry for you if I didn't believe you completely ignored Thorans post. The lack of response from Belle doesn't indicate that she ignored him. However, she isn't interested in statistics; his post didn't interest her (no offense to Thoran). The fact is all you are doing is ranting and I don't want to hear your male bashing! I once yelled at a boss of mine who made sexist comments and I once had a boss who slapped his girlfriends and almost fed him a fist sandwich! Do something about it or quit your ranting. Azred pats you on your head. There, there...it's ok. Belle comports herself with more dignity than to go around yelling and punching others. How do you know she hasn't done something about it? [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] Calm down...she didn't say that you did anything. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

Those links weren't all statistics, maybe half and half. There were a number of opinion pieces, written by both men and women. The reason I posted the links in the first place was based on a request for rebuttal information from Belle based on her knowledge of articles claiming a wage gap. Since the whole wage gap myth is based on statistical manipulations it's virtually impossible to rebut without looking into the numbers.

I'm not accusing you guys (it appears you have the same misconceptions regarding gender that most americans have) but "dodging the numbers" is a pretty common feminist practice. They'll make an insane statement like "every 12 seconds a woman is assaulted by her intimate partner" but when you point out that the study used for that reference states in the next line that men are assaulted at the same rate by intimate partners they'll come back with "well we're not interested in the numbers or keeping score". The problem with this is it allows them to paint a distorted picture of the issues surrounding gender in the country, and that picture IS having a negative effect on our male children and reinforcing common (and false) beliefs, like the idea that workplace discrimination is a one-sided problem.

You ask why anchors are men if the media isn't sexist... I'd suggest that it's not the sex of the person doing the reporting... it's WHAT'S being reported. A woman runs over her husband with her child in the car and the media is sympathetic, if a man had been driving the car do you think we'd have had a petition going around to set him free? Watch mainstream media and it's painfully obvious that there's an anti-male bias permeating every facet of it. Count the number of times a man is assaulted on prime-time sit-coms... punched, kicked in the groin (for laughs.. ha ha), etc, then count the number of times a male character is portrayed as a buffoon, idiot, abusive, incompetent, etc. Even better yet... try to find a man who is portrayed as a strong masculine role model in an sit-com, tough job there. This bias is pervasive and one sided, women are very rarely portrayed in such a negative light, I'd love to see a reference to the last time a woman was punched in the breast for laughs.

[ 09-10-2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[IAmThumper]

Azred pats you on your head. There, there...it's ok.

You know what you can do with that hand right? I do think she has ignored his post. She starts by continuing how bad the men are at her work and then bashes men and then finally patronizes(something you have in common) them just to feel better about herself. She basically did what she was complaining men do and you think I shouldn't take offense?
I think she can speak for herself.
Normally I'm a much nicer and calmer person. I must be in a bad mood or something. Anyway I have no intention of making this a marathon thread. She had her rant and now I guess I've had mine.

[Azred]

For Thoran, I agree that there is a continuing trend to skew certain statistics against men (wage gap, abuse gap, etc), which is what makes Statistics simultaneously fun and meaningless. She doesn't care too much for numbers or articles or such, just relaying what she had been personally experiencing vis-a-vis attitudes towards women. The typical woman in our town has at least 3 children (usually 2 of them are age 4 or younger) and 1 on the way [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] , stays at home most of the day--when she isn't shopping, and doesn't work; hence, the attitude of their husbands is, to put it mildly, archaic. They expect her not to work and have a litter, and this attitude comes out in their general behavior. She didn't mean to rant at any specific male (that is my job, thank you very much [img]tongue.gif[/img] ).

For IAmThumper...Azred pats you on your head. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]
On the one hand, Belle doesn't have to explain herself to you; on the other hand, she doesn't patronize others to feel better.
She does speak for herself (when I let her [img]tongue.gif[/img] oh, I'll pay for that comment); she simply chose not to respond personally.
Everyone has bad days and bad moods...don't take things so personally. We never do. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Kaltia]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Bah! Quit your whining woman and get back to work!

*SMACK!*

*Glare*

[img]tongue.gif[/img]