The "Axis" of evil? - Page 2

Kaz · 02-01-2002, 12:05 PM

How can you point at an entire COUNTRY and say that it is evil? I agree, the term 'evil' is being used WAY too much. I don't know the exact history of either North Korea, Iran or Iraq, but I cannot believe that you could simply say, "they are evil - we are good". Also, if ANYTHING, you could call the GOVERNMENT evil (if it starves its people) but surely not the whole country (that would be including civilians, little children, ...). I agree, the term 'evil' is being used far too much lately. IMHO, it is very hard to term a SINGLE person 'evil', let alone several million! Also, a too black-and-white view of the situation does not help A BIT. Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong!

Neb · 02-01-2002, 12:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong!

Now there's something a lot of people need to learn, very few people are willing to admit when they're wrong, not saying that I'm one of those, I sometimes have a hard time admitting when I'm wrong, but I can usually admit it.

Bush being a patriot doesn't make it easy for him to see the US as anything other than "God's Chosen", the people who are always in the right, always doing the right thing, never wrong, never doing any evil at all.

And when you see yourself as the ultimate good it's easy to see others as "evil".

Azred · 02-01-2002, 03:00 PM

"Axis" obviously refers to the "alliance" of Germany, Japan, and Italy back in World War II; Bush is trying to paint those three countries with the same brush. Those three countries have not been in the forefront of American news since mid-September, so why mention them now?

Well, if Bush is going to South Korea next month then he needs to begin mentioning Korea now, so that attention may be focused more on his actions there. However, when you involve North Korea you will inevitably involve China. Does he really hope to foster closer ties with the South and try to punish the North? That would be a very short-sighted goal, because it is only a matter of time before the two Koreas reunite.

Iran has not been much of a factor in American news/politics since the death of the Ayatollah Khomeni. War with Iraq drained whatever resources they might have used elsewhere.

Iraq is still crippled by embargoes, sanctions, inspectors, and no-fly zones. What can they really do right now? Lob a few missiles at Israel? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] I think Iraq's main goal is to make sure that the rest of the world will buy the oil they have to sell; money is a more powerful motivating factor than trying to advance your religious/political causes.

I think Bush's "Axis" was meant to play well to the listening public (as all speeches are designed to do), but if he really wanted to highlight future trouble areas then he should have been looking elsewhere: Israel--that situation is going to end in a lot more bloodshed on both sides before any resolution is found (just carve an area to give to the Palestinians); Pakistan/India--these two could trigger WW3 if the Kashmir argument (at least) is not resolved (why not split the region into two?); South America--how long before economic woes there reach further north?

Wow. I really got on a soap-box today.

Oh, well....

Barry the Sprout · 02-01-2002, 05:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Kaz:
How can you point at an entire COUNTRY and say that it is evil? I agree, the term 'evil' is being used WAY too much. I don't know the exact history of either North Korea, Iran or Iraq, but I cannot believe that you could simply say, "they are evil - we are good". Also, if ANYTHING, you could call the GOVERNMENT evil (if it starves its people) but surely not the whole country (that would be including civilians, little children, ...). I agree, the term 'evil' is being used far too much lately. IMHO, it is very hard to term a SINGLE person 'evil', let alone several million! Also, a too black-and-white view of the situation does not help A BIT. Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong!

Extremely well said Kaz. That is exactly what I was trying to say in my "What is evil" thread. Whilst the term is used frequently it is often used without much thought to what it really means. My view is that it is an entirely subjective concept, as different people view different actions as evil they will judge different people as evil. It is all very depressing...

Ronn_Bman · 02-01-2002, 06:42 PM

Believe it or not.....I didn't like the naming of countries either! I especially didn't like the "axis of evil" proclamation.

Didn't the Iranian government pronounce outrage at the September 11th terrorist attacks? I'm sure they (the government) didn't mind seeing the US get a "kick in the groin", and I did here an official say the US "had it coming" (a phrase which I personally hate), but they did condemn the attacks on civilians. They were also at odds with the Taliban and Saddam and some times "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't a bad idea.

The Iraqi government I do understand. Who didn't see that coming? They don't have the ability to roll out of their borders anymore and bring havok to the region, but they do seem to have the ability to create weapons of mass destruction.

North Korea? I just don't know. That name probably seemed to come out of the blue to many Americans.

As someone else mentioned earlier, we have enough to handle right now without creating an uncomfortable atmosphere amongst the coalition members.

On a completely different note, don't let the 49 standing ovations make you think the America government is a bunch of idiots applauding one another's ideas as incredibly brilliant. There is some of that of course

, but mostly it's just the "pomp and circumstance" of the ceremony. Each nation has their own customs, etc., and this is one of ours; no more, no less. There would probably have been nearly as many ovations even if September 11th never happened.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Vassili_Zaitsev · 02-01-2002, 06:43 PM

basicly some are evil. North Korea trying to take over south during the 1950's. Iran and iraq harboring terrorists, iraq killing innocent civilians with bio weapons. The US has the right to do that if they want they are battling to stop terrorism not to attack countries for fun. This is war, war is hell. Sometimes in war you have to do things you normally wouldnt do, make decisions. It's either show the terrorst world that US is a joke when talking about fighting terrorism, or live up to their words. We will fight them in the air, we will fight them in the sea, we will fight them on the land, we will fight them on the beaches, we will never give up!

norompanlasolas · 02-01-2002, 06:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
On a completely different note, don't let the 49 standing ovations make you think the America government is a bunch of idiots applauding one another's ideas as incredibly brilliant. There is some of that of course , but mostly it's just the "pomp and circumstance" of the ceremony. Each nations has there own customs and this is one of ours. There would probably have been nearly as many ovations even if September 11th never happened.

yep... in every country in the world every leader (president, pm, king, dictator, whatever) say their speeches in times of strife, which are usually demagogic, and everybody else applaudes and cheers... its got nothing to do with the us, its just a human tradition i guess. [img]smile.gif[/img]

02-01-2002, 08:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by AzureWolf:
Hearing today about Bushwackers latest speech (excuse my french [img]tongue.gif[/img] )and how he described Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "Axis" of evil in the world. Frankly I found that pompous to say the least and a fine example of how the word evil is being liberally spread around these days IMO. Seems quite a few british newspapers have spoken up quite strongly about the speech.
Whats everyones thoughts on this?

P.s The pic I saw of bush at the speech when he was obviously trying to look proud was in my eyes extremely bloody hilarious looked like a school kid trying to be like hitler [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]
Sorry if I am bush bashing a bit but I guess this speech just brought back right in my face the reasons why I think he is a total dickhead.

Az when you do anything to stop those named countries from useing Nukes or Chemical weapons or Biologicals then I'll consider your stance preferable to Bush's but for now I totaly agree with him..but then I had to spend a few years on the front line fearing what these bullshit countries were going to do next. The only real comfort I take is that England, France or Germany are probably going to be the first to feel the effects of those weapons since they have been traditionaly the places where terrorism has been acted out against the west, they are also easier and safer targets now so...good luck.

02-01-2002, 08:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ziroc:
I don't know about you, but pissing North Korea off is not smart. They have an extremely powerful military.. read what the North Korea Government said in reply to Bush:

Running away and hiding from a bully doesnt make him go away. And we have already seen what has happened to the "WORLDS 4th largest Army" when pitted against the west. North Korea will have to be dealt with eventually and just remember, despite how well informed you or I think we are on the subject, the truth is, we have NO CLUE as to what the situation really is. The information being collected on the named "axis" countries is beyond comprehension, so much so tat they don't have enough data analysts to process it all (thank you bill clinton) Never assume you know what those countries are planning because you read the daily news diligently.

02-01-2002, 08:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Donut:
Echoes of Reagan's 'Evil Empire' representation of the USSR.

I won't comment on the delivery or content of the speech but I was amazed to hear that there were 49 standing ovations. Bloody hell - that's almost one per state! Did one state not turn up? Come on, who was it? Alaska? Hawaii? The ovations must have taken more time than the speech. Were they trying to maka a point or is this normal in State of the Union speeches?

The Evil Empire speach worked..hard to argue with success [img]smile.gif[/img]

02-01-2002, 12:53 PM	#12
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 38 Posts: 8,802	quote: Originally posted by Kaz: Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong! Now there's something a lot of people need to learn, very few people are willing to admit when they're wrong, not saying that I'm one of those, I sometimes have a hard time admitting when I'm wrong, but I can usually admit it. Bush being a patriot doesn't make it easy for him to see the US as anything other than "God's Chosen", the people who are always in the right, always doing the right thing, never wrong, never doing any evil at all. And when you see yourself as the ultimate good it's easy to see others as "evil".

02-01-2002, 03:00 PM	#13
Azred Drow Priestess Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex Age: 54 Posts: 4,037	"Axis" obviously refers to the "alliance" of Germany, Japan, and Italy back in World War II; Bush is trying to paint those three countries with the same brush. Those three countries have not been in the forefront of American news since mid-September, so why mention them now? Well, if Bush is going to South Korea next month then he needs to begin mentioning Korea now, so that attention may be focused more on his actions there. However, when you involve North Korea you will inevitably involve China. Does he really hope to foster closer ties with the South and try to punish the North? That would be a very short-sighted goal, because it is only a matter of time before the two Koreas reunite. Iran has not been much of a factor in American news/politics since the death of the Ayatollah Khomeni. War with Iraq drained whatever resources they might have used elsewhere. Iraq is still crippled by embargoes, sanctions, inspectors, and no-fly zones. What can they really do right now? Lob a few missiles at Israel? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] I think Iraq's main goal is to make sure that the rest of the world will buy the oil they have to sell; money is a more powerful motivating factor than trying to advance your religious/political causes. I think Bush's "Axis" was meant to play well to the listening public (as all speeches are designed to do), but if he really wanted to highlight future trouble areas then he should have been looking elsewhere: Israel--that situation is going to end in a lot more bloodshed on both sides before any resolution is found (just carve an area to give to the Palestinians); Pakistan/India--these two could trigger WW3 if the Kashmir argument (at least) is not resolved (why not split the region into two?); South America--how long before economic woes there reach further north? Wow. I really got on a soap-box today. Oh, well.... __________________ Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true. No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

02-01-2002, 05:51 PM	#14
Barry the Sprout White Dragon Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: York, UK. Age: 41 Posts: 1,815	quote: Originally posted by Kaz: How can you point at an entire COUNTRY and say that it is evil? I agree, the term 'evil' is being used WAY too much. I don't know the exact history of either North Korea, Iran or Iraq, but I cannot believe that you could simply say, "they are evil - we are good". Also, if ANYTHING, you could call the GOVERNMENT evil (if it starves its people) but surely not the whole country (that would be including civilians, little children, ...). I agree, the term 'evil' is being used far too much lately. IMHO, it is very hard to term a SINGLE person 'evil', let alone several million! Also, a too black-and-white view of the situation does not help A BIT. Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong! Extremely well said Kaz. That is exactly what I was trying to say in my "What is evil" thread. Whilst the term is used frequently it is often used without much thought to what it really means. My view is that it is an entirely subjective concept, as different people view different actions as evil they will judge different people as evil. It is all very depressing... __________________ [img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe

02-01-2002, 06:42 PM	#15
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 57 Posts: 5,177	Believe it or not.....I didn't like the naming of countries either! I especially didn't like the "axis of evil" proclamation. Didn't the Iranian government pronounce outrage at the September 11th terrorist attacks? I'm sure they (the government) didn't mind seeing the US get a "kick in the groin", and I did here an official say the US "had it coming" (a phrase which I personally hate), but they did condemn the attacks on civilians. They were also at odds with the Taliban and Saddam and some times "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't a bad idea. The Iraqi government I do understand. Who didn't see that coming? They don't have the ability to roll out of their borders anymore and bring havok to the region, but they do seem to have the ability to create weapons of mass destruction. North Korea? I just don't know. That name probably seemed to come out of the blue to many Americans. As someone else mentioned earlier, we have enough to handle right now without creating an uncomfortable atmosphere amongst the coalition members. On a completely different note, don't let the 49 standing ovations make you think the America government is a bunch of idiots applauding one another's ideas as incredibly brilliant. There is some of that of course , but mostly it's just the "pomp and circumstance" of the ceremony. Each nation has their own customs, etc., and this is one of ours; no more, no less. There would probably have been nearly as many ovations even if September 11th never happened. [ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ] __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

02-01-2002, 06:43 PM	#16
Vassili_Zaitsev Dungeon Master Join Date: November 3, 2001 Location: Somewhere Age: 38 Posts: 56	basicly some are evil. North Korea trying to take over south during the 1950's. Iran and iraq harboring terrorists, iraq killing innocent civilians with bio weapons. The US has the right to do that if they want they are battling to stop terrorism not to attack countries for fun. This is war, war is hell. Sometimes in war you have to do things you normally wouldnt do, make decisions. It's either show the terrorst world that US is a joke when talking about fighting terrorism, or live up to their words. We will fight them in the air, we will fight them in the sea, we will fight them on the land, we will fight them on the beaches, we will never give up! __________________ D-Loc to Johnny Richter\'s like ping to pong,<br />Ain\'t nothing wrong don\'t fix shit if it ain\'t broke,<br />We ain\'t no jokes, <br />you know the kings by the size of our tokes, <br />motherfuckers!<br /><br />Blaze All Day, Every Day,<br />Each Way, The Right Way,<br />My Way, Greenhay, We High,<br />Been There, Done That,<br />Big Blunts, Fat Sacks,<br />Hit It Fast, Make It Last,<br />First Class, We Blaze...<br /><br />Well yup I\'m still drunk with the humps in the trunk,<br />You hear the Kottonmouth Kings yellin\' out BUMP! BUMP!<br />I flew through a yellow then I ran a red,<br />Grabbed a bev saw a cop then hit the clutch and breath,<br />Knew I had to slow down so I smoked a bowl,<br />Picked up D-Loc and told him start to roll,<br />Freeway was packed so I paid the toll,<br />Four joints later my bus was fishbowled,

02-01-2002, 12:05 PM	#11
Kaz Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: UK Posts: 2,891	How can you point at an entire COUNTRY and say that it is evil? I agree, the term 'evil' is being used WAY too much. I don't know the exact history of either North Korea, Iran or Iraq, but I cannot believe that you could simply say, "they are evil - we are good". Also, if ANYTHING, you could call the GOVERNMENT evil (if it starves its people) but surely not the whole country (that would be including civilians, little children, ...). I agree, the term 'evil' is being used far too much lately. IMHO, it is very hard to term a SINGLE person 'evil', let alone several million! Also, a too black-and-white view of the situation does not help A BIT. Always consider the fact that you may be in the wrong!

02-01-2002, 06:50 PM	#17
norompanlasolas Avatar Join Date: November 13, 2001 Location: madrid, spain... made in argentina Age: 47 Posts: 569	quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: On a completely different note, don't let the 49 standing ovations make you think the America government is a bunch of idiots applauding one another's ideas as incredibly brilliant. There is some of that of course , but mostly it's just the "pomp and circumstance" of the ceremony. Each nations has there own customs and this is one of ours. There would probably have been nearly as many ovations even if September 11th never happened. yep... in every country in the world every leader (president, pm, king, dictator, whatever) say their speeches in times of strife, which are usually demagogic, and everybody else applaudes and cheers... its got nothing to do with the us, its just a human tradition i guess. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ no

02-01-2002, 08:45 PM	#18
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by AzureWolf: Hearing today about Bushwackers latest speech (excuse my french [img]tongue.gif[/img] )and how he described Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "Axis" of evil in the world. Frankly I found that pompous to say the least and a fine example of how the word evil is being liberally spread around these days IMO. Seems quite a few british newspapers have spoken up quite strongly about the speech. Whats everyones thoughts on this? P.s The pic I saw of bush at the speech when he was obviously trying to look proud was in my eyes extremely bloody hilarious looked like a school kid trying to be like hitler [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] Sorry if I am bush bashing a bit but I guess this speech just brought back right in my face the reasons why I think he is a total dickhead. Az when you do anything to stop those named countries from useing Nukes or Chemical weapons or Biologicals then I'll consider your stance preferable to Bush's but for now I totaly agree with him..but then I had to spend a few years on the front line fearing what these bullshit countries were going to do next. The only real comfort I take is that England, France or Germany are probably going to be the first to feel the effects of those weapons since they have been traditionaly the places where terrorism has been acted out against the west, they are also easier and safer targets now so...good luck.

02-01-2002, 08:49 PM	#19
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Ziroc: I don't know about you, but pissing North Korea off is not smart. They have an extremely powerful military.. read what the North Korea Government said in reply to Bush: Running away and hiding from a bully doesnt make him go away. And we have already seen what has happened to the "WORLDS 4th largest Army" when pitted against the west. North Korea will have to be dealt with eventually and just remember, despite how well informed you or I think we are on the subject, the truth is, we have NO CLUE as to what the situation really is. The information being collected on the named "axis" countries is beyond comprehension, so much so tat they don't have enough data analysts to process it all (thank you bill clinton) Never assume you know what those countries are planning because you read the daily news diligently.

02-01-2002, 08:51 PM	#20
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Donut: Echoes of Reagan's 'Evil Empire' representation of the USSR. I won't comment on the delivery or content of the speech but I was amazed to hear that there were 49 standing ovations. Bloody hell - that's almost one per state! Did one state not turn up? Come on, who was it? Alaska? Hawaii? The ovations must have taken more time than the speech. Were they trying to maka a point or is this normal in State of the Union speeches? The Evil Empire speach worked..hard to argue with success [img]smile.gif[/img]

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