Evolution II

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Moiraine: To those who believe there is a hierarchy of valor between humans - I would like to know on which basis you propose to measure the worth of a human being. Which unit do you use, which scale, which tools are you using ? Lacking those, permptory comments about "ignoring reality" haven't got an ounce of validity. About singing and music. How do you define "a good musician" ? To me, a good musician is simply the one who brings pleasure. Thus, as Yorick said, anyone can be a good musician. I have heard many local bands that maybe didn't have a perfect pitch or an outstanding talent but knew how to make a ball or a small concert lively. Isn't that what really counts ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Miss Moiraine Ma'am,
I beleive that a hierarchy between humans, is not the same as the worth of a human. Is there a hierarchy between humans? You bet, "Let me count the ways" (to steal a phrase)
1)phsyical height
2)phsyical wieght
3)Strength
4)spelling ability
5)eye sight
6)hearing
7)eye-hand coordination
8)feet size
9)Bra cup size
10)intelligence
11)wisdom
12)brain chemistry
13)hormone levels
Etc.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Everybody has a hierarchy! (friends, aquaintances, can't stand, and for us southerners people we wouldn't piss on if they were on fire). Is the life of one human being worth more then the life of another? Depending on the circumstances, YES, one human's life can be of more value then another human's life. What is being confused in this discussion is the worth of a human which is their soul, in the case of a human worth ALL are equal. The soul endures forever. A human's life is but here for a fleeting instance, no more than the morning dew, here one moment then it's gone. And the lifes of ALL other humans continues on until they die.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by LordKathen: I guess you guys are the more adaptable ones. I did not evolve with you.

That's ok some of us may have devolved instead during this thread, the jury is still out

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: You and Yorick seem to have only restated your initial sentiments.

No no. Just clarified them. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: To those who believe there is a hierarchy of valor between humans - I would like to know on which basis you propose to measure the worth of a human being. Which unit do you use, which scale, which tools are you using ? Lacking those, permptory comments about "ignoring reality" haven't got an ounce of validity. About singing and music. How do you define "a good musician" ? To me, a good musician is simply the one who brings pleasure. Thus, as Yorick said, anyone can be a good musician. I have heard many local bands that maybe didn't have a perfect pitch or an outstanding talent but knew how to make a ball or a small concert lively. Isn't that what really counts ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Miss Moiraine Ma'am,
I beleive that a hierarchy between humans, is not the same as the worth of a human. Is there a hierarchy between humans? You bet, "Let me count the ways" (to steal a phrase)
1)phsyical height
2)phsyical wieght
3)Strength
4)spelling ability
5)eye sight
6)hearing
7)eye-hand coordination
8)feet size
9)Bra cup size
10)intelligence
11)wisdom
12)brain chemistry
13)hormone levels
Etc.
I could go on but I think you get the point. Everybody has a hierarchy! (friends, aquaintances, can't stand, and for us southerners people we wouldn't piss on if they were on fire). Is the life of one human being worth more then the life of another? Depending on the circumstances, YES, one human's life can be of more value then another human's life. What is being confused in this discussion is the worth of a human which is their soul, in the case of a human worth ALL are equal. The soul endures forever. A human's life is but here for a fleeting instance, no more than the morning dew, here one moment then it's gone. And the lifes of ALL other humans continues on until they die.[/QUOTE]But, Johnny John, of course humans are all different, and have different characteristics and skills ! However, there is a HUGE leap between stating, and measuring in some cases (how do you measure wisdom ? ) those differences and deducing a global human being's worth out of them ...

Last group of people who made that leap were the Nazis ...

[John D Harris]

[quote]Originally posted by Moiraine:
[/qb]

But, Johnny John, of course humans are all different, and have different characteristics and skills ! However, there is a HUGE leap between stating, and measuring in some cases (how do you measure wisdom ? ) those differences and deducing a global human being's worth out of them ... Last group of people who made that leap were the Nazis ... [/QB]

How do you measure wisdom? Very carefully
Agreed it is foolish to use the characteristics, skills and abilities as the measure of a human's worth. But it is equally foolish to use the characteristics, skills and abilities to try and state we are all equal because we have in some measure the Char., skill, or ability as another. ie: we can all sing or learn to sing (play piano, whatever), Therefor we are all equal. Our worth is more then our abilities. Which is exactly what I believe you and Yorick where trying to say, only problem, by argueing abilities (everybody can sing, play piano,etc.) you in fact end up giving credence to the abilitites is worth arguement.

[ 02-27-2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Moiraine: As always, a thoughtful and positive post. You should change your nick, really. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ahhhhhh.....you're gonna make me blush, Moiraine. [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] {see?}

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: But, Johnny John, of course humans are all different, and have different characteristics and skills ! However, there is a HUGE leap between stating, and measuring in some cases (how do you measure wisdom ? ) those differences and deducing a global human being's worth out of them ... Last group of people who made that leap were the Nazis ... [/QB] How do you measure wisdom? Very carefully Agreed it is foolish to use the characteristics, skills and abilities as the measure of a human's worth. But it is equally foolish to use the characteristics, skills and abilities to try and state we are all equal because we have in some measure the Char., skill, or ability as another. ie: we can all sing or learn to sing (play piano, whatever), Therefor we are all equal. Our worth is more then our abilities. Which is exactly what I believe you and Yorick where trying to say, only problem, by argueing abilities (everybody can sing, play piano,etc.) you in fact end up giving credence to the abilitites is worth arguement. [/QB]

You have relative betters in specific areas. So one person can lift a heavier weight than you. That makes them able to lift more weigth than you. That doesn't give them more endurance, greater pain threshold, more inner strength, greater commitment more trustworthiness or anything else unless you also meaasure those too. Some of those things can't be measured unless you're around them all the time over a number of years.

Thus, you have to assume that though you may be better in one area than the next person, they will be better than you in a different area. We all have strengths and weaknesses - whether they are developed to their fullest potential is a different story.

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by WillowIX: Are we dropping the evolution for a moment? Well it is your topic so I have no complaints. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Willow, this is not "my" topic ! [img]smile.gif[/img] I started this thread, it has its own life now, you guys make it live.

Originally posted by WillowIX: In my experience I do feel a difference in valor between humans. My husband is more valuable and therefore worth more to me than a stranger on a street. The same goes for the rest of my family. I know this is probably not what you intended with your question but that is the best answer I can give you.

Ah, but you are talking about your own preferences, which is totally different than assigning an absolute worth value to a human being.

Originally posted by WillowIX: All men have the right to life; I find that a better sentence than all men are created equal. [img]smile.gif[/img] But were we to discuss the human genetic pool one could sauy that one individual would be worth more to society than another. But then we are no longer talking about humanity, rather the chance of a beneficial trait being passed on to future generations. And let´s face it, humans can´t tell that by looking at another human. Rats can though.

No, my point was not to say that all humans are "equal" - which would be setting a scale anyway - but that there is and can be NO scale on which the worth of a human being could be measured ! [img]smile.gif[/img] "All men are born free and equal in rights" states the Declaration of Human Rights. Doesn't mean you can make a boxing champion from Einstein material.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Yorick: We all have strengths and weaknesses - whether they are developed to their fullest potential is a different story.

To elaborate, this is the point I was making re. circumstance. THe person who may have made Einstein look like a small minded nonlateral moron, may have been aborted, killed by a bomb hitting Baghdad, Berlin, London or Nagasaki or killed in WTC, a car accident at aged three or a schoolfriend who goes nuts and shot them. How would we know? The external circumstance has nothing at all to do with how fit they are, or how adapted to the environment they are.

It has to do with the fact that shyht happens out of our control. Gates happened to be fortunate. He was in the right place at the right time. Certainly he doesn't deserve his position any more than the vendor in India working 20 hours a day seven days a week, earning almost nothing, but supporting 13 kids, (three with TB) doesn't deserve his.

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by Moiraine:

....there is and can be NO scale on which the worth of a human being could be measured ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Speaking professionally:
- A death case is worth a base $1 mil. when figuring on settlement.
- Excessive pain and suffering can raise this substantially.
- A mutilation case can be worth more. Permanent brain damage and handicap will top the death value and be worth at least $ 5 mil.
- This is all modified by "earning potential" over the lifetime. Yes, a doctor's wife gets more money from a death case than a laborer's wife, all other things taken equally.

Assignment to the value of life is in the legal system every day. Not countering any points with this, just an FYI.