Free David Hicks

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Havock: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: "The USA tortures enemy combatants." That is a factual statement based on evidence and convictions from Abu Ghraib, and based on the signed affadavits of at least 3 Australians from Guantanamo Bay, and countless others.

You say this like it is a bad thing. If tortureing prisoners will save the lives of civilians or active soldiers for that matter , I say the black wire on the car battery is negative and the red one positive. Would you condem tortureing prisoners if you knew it could have prevented 9/11/01? Results are what realy matter in the end. The ends don't need to justify the means. If it saves even one life then the ends realy don't need any justification. The enemy should never be given any comfort or succor when there is a war going on. If they weren't on the battlefield in the first place they wouldn't have been captured. It isn't like the Coalition troops went to Mr. Hicks house and kidnapped him in front of his wife and kids. [/QUOTE]Ho! So now you're trying to DEFEND TORTURE! It get's better and better from you lot.

It doesn't matter what you THINK about torture. The fact is, it's illegal. The American govt. is breaking treaties and it's own laws in using torture.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Micah Foehammer: Let me try this ONE more time and maybe you will FINALLY get it through your thick skull. Three affadavits of alleged torture against members of the US armed forces at GITMO are NOT proof, yet you are willing to convict them out of hand simply based on crimes committed by other people at another time and another place. And you don't see the one-sidedness of that while calling for David Hicks release for what you see as lack of proof? And you call ME crazy? Maybe the charges ARE true, but they still need to be PROVED. No matter HOW strong the circumstantial evidence is. That kind of sounds like the argument you are making on Mr Hicks behalf, doesn't it? Aside to Shamrock - yeah that one thing struck me as out of place. I think it was included in the list for two reasons: one was simply to establish the time frame of his actions and secondly, to counter claims that Mr Hicks was unaware of certain events when he went back to Afghanistan.

Let ME try this one time and maybe you'll get it through YOUR thick skull.

Gitmo and Abu Ghraib are run by the same administration, with the same ethos and intent, housing enemies regarded as being on the same side. You're trying to seperate Gitmo like it's it's own thing. Rumsfeld was running Gitmo AND Abu Ghraib. The same military, the same army. The same government.

Abu Ghraib had allegations of torture proven.
Gitmo has allegations of torture from numerous source (not just three affadavits) and has the administration trying to get evidence gleaned from torture ruled as admissable in court.

Why would they fight so hard to get it admitted in court of they hadn't tortured? Think about it Micah.

There will be convictions against torturers at Gitmo when this is all over. War crimes come back to haunt the perpetrators years after the events.

If there wasn't the PRECEDENT of Abu Ghraib, you may have a point. But the way I see it, the was smoke, and thus fire at one, so where there's smoke there will be fire in the other.

And just rmember all I'm doing is writing words on the internet. I'm not an international court. I'm not incarcerating anyone. There's no comparison between crying foul on the net, and arresting and holding someone for 5 years without trial.

[robertthebard]

http://experts.about.com/e/d/da/david_hicks.htm

This site has all the stuff posted by the "Free Him" side. Reading through this yet again, I don't see anywhere that says he's applied for dual citizenship. I also don't see a government taking an oath to mean, "You will be loyal to the Queen, except in matters regarding your country of birth...". Nice try though.
3 affadavits, out of how many detainees? Knowing what I know of inmate mentallity, from personal experience, it seems to me that a lot of people would be riding the bus with those three. Unless only those three are being tortured?
Now here's something that has sparked my curiosity, and it just now occurred to me; How was Mr. Hicks living? Reading his history on the link provided, and in what's been presented, where was he getting the money to do all this travelling? Who was feeding him, or putting clothes on his back? More importantly, since his wife and kids have been mentioned, who was supporting them? If Mr. Hicks was doing so, where was he getting the money for that? These are questions of the man's character, and are relevant to the whole situation. He denounced his past life to become a Muslim, and yet he now wants to use that past life as an argument that he doesn't deserve to be detained. The claim that he wasn't a terrorist, or didn't actively participate in terrorist activity is bogus at best. He trained to be a terrorist, and took up arms in the Jihad against the "Jewish Propaganda Machine". Misinformation is a terrible thing, and if all the information one takes in a discussion is from the "He's a good guy" side of it, then there is a lot that gets left out.
Based on what I know, from this discussion particularly, the man's character is questionable at best, and therefore, any evidence he presents is likewise questionable.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mellagar: As for Bono's cries for release, why doesn't he 1.try to make Northern Ireland free from British rule? 2.Or resolve Tibetan prejudice? Or argue that 3.Native Americans should be given back lands taken from them and be given opportunities lost for centuries? 4.As for Hick's being Australian, I feel that has little bearing on the matter.

1.Because the majority in Ulster are so called "protestants" who want to remain part of Britain.
Because enough people have died over northern Irleand already.
And because in a generation, the majority will be catholic, and may wll vote to rejoin Ireland.
and because both Ireland and Britain are part of Europe and may well all become one state anyway.
and because he's been singing against violence in Ireland all his career. ("Sunday Bloody Sunday" etc)
need any more reasons?

2.I'm sure if U2 do a concert in Beijing, he'll say enough. The concert was in Sydney though.

3.Great idea. Shall we start with your house?

4.Because he was in Australia, Hicks is an Aussie and Bono had a microphone. He said something because he CAN.

Would you have Bono save all the worlds problems?
Did you notice he also spoke against the Howard governments levels of aid giving? If he spent the entire concert railing about every injustice in the world, nothing would get done. Two concerns - one long term that he's set up foundations for, and the other a simple mention to free an individual - are more than enough during a night of entertainment.

I think Bono's doing more than most in his position.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by robertthebard: http://experts.about.com/e/d/da/david_hicks.htm This site has all the stuff posted by the "Free Him" side. Reading through this yet again, I don't see anywhere that says he's applied for dual citizenship. I also don't see a government taking an oath to mean, "You will be loyal to the Queen, except in matters regarding your country of birth...". Nice try though.

Robert, the Queen of England is also the Queen of Australia.
In any case, Australians don't lose their Aussie citizenship if they apply for British or US or most other nations citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen, as are numbers of my friends.
Thirdly, it's been all over the news do a google search for "Hicks gets dual citizenship british": He doesn't have British citizenship any more in any case:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation....html?from=rss

[Yorick]

Originally posted by robertthebard: http://experts.about.com/e/d/da/david_hicks.htm He denounced his past life to become a Muslim, and yet he now wants to use that past life as an argument that he doesn't deserve to be detained.

What past life? There are huge numbers of Australian Muslims. Being Australian and being Muslim are not contradictions!

Was it you who said that Mamdouh Habib etc weren't Aussies, they were Labanese?? You could not be more wrong. We are a nation of immigrants, and a Lebanese who comes over and get's Aussie citizenship is as Aussie as a 7 generations Aussie like myself. If an Aussie want's to find Islam good for them. That doesn't make them a terrorist. Nor does travelling in Asia (with or without a gun). There are millions of Aussies backpacking around, living in other nations. 1 million in London apparently. 100,000 in New York. Countless numbers in Asia.

In any case, arguing over his guilt is POINTESS, because no-one here has the information. He hasn't been tried. You don't know what evidence the govt. has on Hicks, because they're not saying! Until he's been tried, you cannot declare he's guilty anymore than I can declare he's innocent. Anyone who is convinced he's paying for his decisions etc. is taking assumption and presumption as fact, which it's not. No-one knows why Hicks was in Afgahnistan. For all we know, he was an ex-US agent who was ready to tell the world the Bush admin flew the planes into the WTC. I mean how are we going to know? If there's no trial, there's no information.

And if he's a traitor, let the Australian government try him for treason. What business is it of the US govt.? An Australian jury should decide if he's guilty of betraying us.

That's all we're asking. Put him before a proper court, or release him. Don't keep holding him indefinitely without trial.

[johnny]

He wasn't in Afghanistan to pick daisy's, that's for sure. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like Afghanistan ? Lets see....sightseeing ? Hmmm...not much to see there besides death and destruction. Sextourism ? Probably not, otherwise he would have been in Thailand instead. Aiding the local population ? that would have been a possibility, maybe he just signed up in the wrong office and became a Taliban conscript by accident....hmmm...probably not. What's left ? Not much...besides....he actually wanted to join the Jihad, because he's an insane bastard who gets a kick out of violence, preferably against anyone who doesn't interpretate the koran like he and his brothers do. Now that's a distinct possibilty.

Why do you think he went to Afghanistan Yorick ?

[robertthebard]

Sunday Bloody Sunday was about Martin Luther King Jr. Unless Ireland's violence has spilled over into Memphis?

[Yorick]

Johnny, show me the trial transcripts that prove his guilt or give it a rest.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Sunday Bloody Sunday was about Martin Luther King Jr. Unless Ireland's violence has spilled over into Memphis?

"Pride (in the name of Love)" is about Martin Luther King Jr.

"Sunday Bloody Sunday" is referring to 'BLOODY SUNDAY' - the 1972 shooting of unarmed Irish civilians by the British army at Bogside in Derry - with a reference at the end to Easter Sunday.

http://larkspirit.com/bloodysunday/



I can't believe the news today
Oh, I can't close my eyes
And make it go away
How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? How long...
'cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...

Broken bottles under children's feet
Bodies strewn across the dead end street
But I won't heed the battle call
It puts my back up
Puts my back up against the wall

Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Sunday, Bloody Sunday

And the battle's just begun
There's many lost, but tell me who has won
The trench is dug within our hearts
And mothers, children, brothers, sisters
Torn apart

Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Sunday, Bloody Sunday

How long...
How long must we sing this song?
How long? How long...
'cause tonight...we can be as one
Tonight...tonight...

Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Sunday, Bloody Sunday

Wipe the tears from your eyes
Wipe your tears away
Oh, wipe your tears away
Oh, wipe your tears away
(Sunday, Bloody Sunday)
Oh, wipe your blood shot eyes
(Sunday, Bloody Sunday)

Sunday, Bloody Sunday (Sunday, Bloody Sunday)
Sunday, Bloody Sunday (Sunday, Bloody Sunday)

And it's true we are immune
When fact is fiction and TV reality
And today the millions cry
We eat and drink while tomorrow they die

(Sunday, Bloody Sunday)

The real battle just begun
To claim the victory Jesus won
On...

Sunday Bloody Sunday
Sunday Bloody Sunday...

[ 11-29-2006, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]