Bardless HoF parties

[Aerich]

I like bards. The middle stages of a game, including a HoF game, are smoother with a bard in the party. A bard is the ultimate support character and a vital piece of any party that is built for the builder's convenience.

However, a bard may not belong in a party built entirely for power. Now that I have some HoF experience (original HoF from scratch party is in Castle Maladurek), I want to build another killer party, significantly different from the first one, which can take full advantage of the essentially unlimited XP of HoF mode.

For the new party, I want: no single classes, no characters without a major spellcasting class, and at least two each of druid, cleric, and mage/specialist. I also want to run a multiclass F/D and a dual class F/D simultaneously for comparison purposes. I could run a dual class F/M, but two dual classes is the absolute maximum for this party.

I want two druids for power: one shapeshifted, slashing-immune melee monster combined with another druid casting spell after spell is a nice mental image.

I want two clerics for flexibility: in my current party, the only cleric (a R/C) is the second melee option - although characters 2-4 in the party are more or less interchangable in that role. Sometimes the R/C dies, leaving me no resurrection options other than trekking back to town for a scroll or Power Word: Reload. I have begun to carry resurrection scrolls in the druid's scroll case, as the druid can cast cleric spells off a scroll (a minor game exploit). A second cleric would be nice.

I want two mages/specialists for power.

Suggestions?

[Aerich]

I am mulling over three basic party builds. All of them include a melee cleric build (F/C or R/C), a F/M, and two F/Ds, one of which is a dual class. If a F/C, the melee cleric will be a dwarf or gnome. Dwarf because I heard that the mc F/C does receive an additional benefit from 19 Con, or gnome because of the Helm - although Wis could be a problem.

Essentially, I have in mind a core of four characters. The question is which two additional builds will best complement the core group? There has to be a thief class in the party somewhere, preferably multiclassed.

Here are three sample parties:

First is the party I described here.

It consists of: R/C, F/D, F/D, F/M, C/M and F/M/T

Second is: F/C, F/D, F/D, F/M, R/C and T/M

Third is F/C, F/D, F/D, F/M, C/T and F/M. As a variation, one of the F/M could be a F/M/C. If I have two F/M, one will be dual classed.

Any of the "mage" notations could be a specialist; obviously illusionist if multiclassed.

Please feel free to make comments on anything to do with party building and HoF. Do you have a preference between the three parties above or a particular variation? Should I rethink the four character builds I'm using for the core?

[ZFR]

Originally posted by Aerich: I also want to run a multiclass F/D and a dual class F/D simultaneously for comparison purposes.

my, my... that idea is mine.. you copycat you [img]tongue.gif[/img]

As of the three parties, you could try the second one IMO. Only instead of T/M, you could try F/T/M (that would make it same party as mine, except for F/M in place of bard), or you could add an additional variation F/C/M in place of F/M (you'll have 2 triple classes then)...

so your party would be:

F/C F/D F/D F/M/C C/R F/M/T

that's assuming the XP in HoF is big enough to handle to triple classes... since you finished HoF you'd know I suppose.

[Ultra Marine]

The 1st has a C/M and the 2nd has a C/T. Both will run out of spells and then what? Sling Rocks? But you should know better ...

The 2nd is nice with 2 of each Clerics, Druids and Mage. The T/M will also run out of spells but then a bow is better than slings eh? Why not put a FMT instead?

On your comment on R/C Dying : Why not make a DC R/C? You'd get load of resurection and he can be a back end fellow with a sling or that spiritual hammer. The spiritual hammer for ranger can get 2apr and considers as a magic hit.

[ZFR]

Just thought of something else... another benefit of the party mentioned by me above would be that with xp being gained so fast, your mages will be way ahead with levels than spells. If both are triple class they won't go up as fast, and you'll have scrolls for them.

So if I may suggest something how about: 2x party 2 druids, 2 clerics, 2 mages:

2 druids:
F/D
F/D
(1 multi 1 dual to compare)

2 clerics:
F/C
C/R
(one could be dual, or you can have 2 F/C one dual one multi, or 2 C/R one dual one multi)

2 mages (triple)
F/M/T
F/M/C

[Aerich]

Originally posted by ZFR: quote: Originally posted by Aerich: I also want to run a multiclass F/D and a dual class F/D simultaneously for comparison purposes.

my, my... that idea is mine.. you copycat you [img]tongue.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]Guilty. However, it's something I had in mind even before you suggested it, I think. Many moons ago I mentioned a comparator party for Fighter/Mages in the course of my "mc vs dc" discussions with NobleNick.

One of the problems with having two druids and two or more clerics is weapon choices. I'm a little reluctant to have three cleric multiclasses because that means I will have only one character who can use bows, axes, daggers, and swords (aside from scimitars). That's a lot of slings and a lot of ammo to carry around.

I don't like the idea of a R/C dual class, especially in HoF. The ranger is limited to two PP in melee weapons and will have to give up edged/pointed weapons once dualed over, so there's no point in filling up on swords and bows. The most beneficial choice for a cleric dc is fighter, but mage/specialist and thief have their attractions. However, I don't think I will use the mage or thief dc option in a HoF party from scratch. The whole point of having a non-melee cleric class is spellcaster specialist (C/M) or support character (C/T).

[Ultra Marine]

Without a Paladin to turn undead, a dc Clecir seems a logical choice unless a mc R/C's turn undead levels are enough.

A C/T for a power gamer party? You must be joking?

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Ultra Marine: A C/T for a power gamer party? You must be joking?

Ok, good point. I was leaning toward the C/M anyway.

I like the first party, the one with the C/M and F/M/T. Reasons? Three mages, the most viable triple-class, a versatile pure caster (C/M) that won't run out of spells often, and two characters without weapon restrictions. The downside is the C/M's utterly pathetic ranged/melee abilities, but it should get its fair share of kills if I play it as a spellbomber and backup healer/buffer.

Now another question: should I use a C/I or F/I, or both? I'm leaning to just one, if at all. If I take a C/I, the extra spell slot/level will come in handy for spellbombing, but I won't have access to necromantic spells. If I take a F/I, I can use the helm, and the extra spell slot here would be good for self-buffs. I wouldn't get necro spells here, which I might no like since so many of them are touch spells and therefore the logical choice to cast (if at all) with a F/M.

Second question: what about the alignment of the clerics? I would like to go with a R/C instead of a F/C for the versatility - druid spells and option of extra melee attack. Therefore, the warrior/cleric would have to be good if it's a ranger. Alternately, I could take a neutral F/C and use the Giving Star mace - but I wouldn't be able to use the Three White Doves with that character later on, which is a major negative. Should I go with good or neutral with the C/M? Neutral provides access to some ok cleric damagers, but prevents that character from casting major healing and raising spells - which is the reason I wanted two clerics. I'm leaning toward having two good clerics unless someone can convince me otherwise.

[Aerich]

Well, I created the party a few days ago and have played up to the first level of Kresselack's tomb in the Vale.

The party consists of:
Ranger/Cleric multi
Fighter/Druid multi
Fighter/Druid dual
Fighter/Illusionist multi
Fighter/Mage/Thief multi
Cleric/Mage multi

The advantage over my last party (P, R/C, F/M, F/D, F/T, and B) is the number of arcane spells and having two clerics instead of one. The disadvantage is the lack of a dominant tank and the loss of bard songs.

So far, it's tank/decoy by committee. With three arcane casters I am using the F/Ill very much as a battle tank even at this early stage. Spell access is of course a problem, as I now have lvl 4 spell access but scrolls only up to lvl 2 (+ Haste). I'm also using a lot more direct damage with clerics and mages than I have in the past.