Question about Evolution/Creationism etc.

Just for the record [img]smile.gif[/img] I didn't start the thread to be a religious debate [img]smile.gif[/img] I started it because I was suddenly stuck on the question..why have "I" not seen a newly evolved creature in my life time [img]smile.gif[/img] The answer was and probably still is, "Because evolution takes a loooong time" But the responses in this thread have been great [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks everyone [img]smile.gif[/img]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by MagiK: Just for the record [img]smile.gif[/img] I didn't start the thread to be a religious debate [img]smile.gif[/img] I started it because I was suddenly stuck on the question..why have "I" not seen a newly evolved creature in my life time [img]smile.gif[/img] The answer was and probably still is, "Because evolution takes a loooong time" But the responses in this thread have been great [img]smile.gif[/img] Thanks everyone [img]smile.gif[/img]

yeah yeah, admit it! you did it on purpose... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: I don't know why any discussion of evolution always has to have religion involved...I'm staying out of that part of the debate, but religion can be used to mislead a lot of people. Didn't they kill Galileo because he had the temerity to suggest the Earth was not the center of the Universe? Also, the Earth is much older than "4-6000 years." Human recorded history (as in ancient Egypt) goes back much further than that. The current accepted age of the Earth is 6-10 billion years. No, that's not from "carbon dating" (which is fairly accurate by the way, contrary to what some people might think, but can only date things in the relatively recent past), but from geological and other evidence, which is how they know for instance, that the dinosaurs lived 165-65 million years ago. For a species that by and large has trouble seeing more than two minutes in front of and behind them, the concepts of millions and billions of years are unfathomable, and perhaps the Bible is a much easier interpretation. Evolution is a process of slow gradual change to help species better adapt to their environments. IMHO, humanity is NOT evolving. The examples of wisdom teeth and people getting taller are NOT evolution. They are perhaps the result of changing diets, improved health, or growth hormones in our food. The question you need to ask, is "Is this change helping me (and the species) survive and reproduce? Do people who are shorter or who have wisdom teeth have a lowered chance of reproducing? Of course not. ANYONE can have kids, so humanity is not evolving. I haven't seen it yet, but there is a new special on the Discovery channel where they use DNA evidence to track human origins back to the earliest people. They've already mapped the human genome, so they use this along with the fossil record to track changes over time. Also on the subject of DNA, did you know we share 99.5% of our DNA with apes? We share 50% with the lowly fruit fly. If that isn't an argumant for common origins, I don't know what is. Don't confuse external appearances with internal working. There is a reason, for instance, that they use animals to test chemicals, and the effects of diseases. Animal genetics are very similar to humans. In our arrogance, let us not forget that we are just another species of animal...we just use higher-order thinking skills (sometimes). The final point is the misconception about the word "theory." A theory is NOT a hypothesis! According to Webster it is...the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another... the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art...and a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena. The problem lies in that the commonly accepted definition of the word also includes speculation or hypothesis, so that is how we usually think of it. Incidentally, the crux of the problem with Darwin was not evolution; most scientists even in the 19th century accepted it as fact...the problem was with his ideas of natural selection, or "survival of the fittest." A common misconception, too, is the theories of social Darwinism, as espoused by the NAZIs and others, to justify one race's supposed superiority over others. As stated before, evolution and natural selection are about change to better help a species survive and reproduce in its living conditions. There may be instinctual, social or other behavioral elements involved along with the physical changes though. Also, evolution is not "up" or "down" it just IS. Evolution is just change. Humans are not more "evolved" than apes, we are just different, just like every species is different from others in certain ways. It is so like humanity to present value judgements on what are otherwise dry scientific facts. We HAVE seen evolution on smaller time scales...reread my earlier post (#3) for clarification.

very very VERY well said. i agree with most (if not all) of your points.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Bahamut: What stumps me is the loophole I try to figure out... what comes before the very beginnings of it all? I mean even with God... did he just pop up? Or was there generations of people before Him... Stumps me, but then I just pray and keep my faith in good hands

How I see it is that "God" is what we call the awareness that has always existed, is outside time and brought forth everything into being.

He just is.

"I am" (YHWH) is how he identified himself to the early Jews. He is, not was or will be.

What does outside time mean? What the heck is God?

We'll never totally comprehend him. Like a cat will never comprehend a human. The fact that there are so many aspects about God that are beyond everything we experience (no begginning for starters) is one more little piece of evidence that humans did not create the concept of God.

As humans we can only create from our experience. From what we've sensed. A professional creative learns to manage their influences. Keep experiencing new things to keep ideas flowing and thus create hybrids of all they see, hear, taste or smell. Giving newer perspective.

God on the other hand is like nothing in nature. Evrything has a beggining because WE have a beggining. We cannot remove ourselves from this reality.

God just is.

He doesn't need a beggining.

He is the one constancy in a universe of perpetual motion.

Macro to micro, everything is moving.

Blood pumps through our veins, our lungs move, the earth moves around the sun and tilting axis. The solar system moves around the galaxy, the galaxy around the local group, the local group around the ever expanding universe.....

And all through this, time moves and changes. The moment is what we exist in, yet can never be truly captured nor held. Is NOW the present? Of course not. In speaking the word, there is a beggining, an end, and the moment of understanding what the word is.

Time is motion.

But God is constant. The same yesterday as today.

And yet God is love. When you have God inside you, you have love inside you.

So vast and incomprehensible, yet so loving and personable. Desiring relationship with each individual. Creating us flawed so he can forgive, so he could become part of his creation as Christ, and give us more life. Life in addition to the intensely wonderful experience this life is.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: You're right, Melusine, that's what a scientist gets for trying to recount historical facts...He was, in fact given a sentence of life imprisonment which was later commuted to house arrest, for his beliefs.

Christians have died for their beliefs too. In fact that was why the church grew so fast in the early days.

Also, I think you'll find the bible supports the 'round globe' reality of Earth amongst other scientific 'discoveries'.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: Also, evolution is not "up" or "down" it just IS. Evolution is just change. Humans are not more "evolved" than apes, we are just different, just like every species is different from others in certain ways. It is so like humanity to present value judgements on what are otherwise dry scientific facts.

I beg to differ:

evo·lu·tion
Pronunciation: "e-v&-'lü-sh&n, "E-v&-
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere
Date: 1622
1 : one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved
3 : the process of working out or developing
4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : PHYLOGENY b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root
6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena

Use another word if you want to change the meaning of the one discussed. Evolution does mean advancement. Change for the better.

As far as presenting judgement on facts, are you not doing that? This is an inescapable reality. Analysis, We are not just sponges that solely absorb facts. The absorbtion is a means to an end. Part of a process.

Subject - reception - analysis - action.

"Dry scientific facts" are in fact themselves judgements. Usually (and hopefully) judgements made from repeatedly analysing data from more than one angle, with counter observations of the reverse.

[ 04-22-2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Blade]

Yorik thats not the only reason why the church grew so fast in its earlier years. One major point is that christians forced many people at the point of a sword to become christians and then forced there childeren to be christians too. All the western religions have forces everyone around them to agree with them or to die it is just how the western world, and most of humanity works. just a small point thats off the topic but a very frustrating on IMHO.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Blade: Yorik thats not the only reason why the church grew so fast in its earlier years. One major point is that christians forced many people at the point of a sword to become christians and then forced there childeren to be christians too. All the western religions have forces everyone around them to agree with them or to die it is just how the western world, and most of humanity works. just a small point thats off the topic but a very frustrating on IMHO.

? You mean Islam perhaps? One cannot become christian at the point of the sword.

I'm talking about the initial growth of the church, during the Roman Empire. All the Apostles were martyred. The christians met in catacombs in ancient Rome to avoid arrest. Nero burned many alive in the arenas. Many were fed to lions.

Perecution only served to increase the church. The witness of the inner peace these people had, even when faced with death, spoke volumes to the people of the time.

There is a strong argument that the christian church is strongest when under external physical pressure such as this, and weakest when it's institutionalised as the state religion. Certainly it's harder to seperate the sheep from the goats when it's easier, or even beneficial to be a christian in a society.

I'm not sure what period in the 'history of the church' you're reading there Blade, but it doesn't get any earlier than the apostles, and that's the period I'm talking about. The initial astonishing growth of the christian faith

[Yorick]

Oh Blade, one other thing....

Christianity is not a western religion, if you're calling it a religion at all (I wouldn't) it's more correct to call it an Eastern Religion
The 'Middle East' being part of the 'East' of course.

You could call Roman Catholicism a Western Religion, and certainly many evils have been performed in the name of the Pope. But the current one has acknowledged that, and even apologised for many parts of it.

Oh, and just to point out that there are vast numbesr of people who don't agree with the actions, rituals and certain institutionalised non-biblical beliefs of the Catholic Church. You might have heard of these people. They're called Protestants.

[Sir Michael]

I think you picked the wrong definition, Yorick. Much like I ignored the more commonly used connontation of the word "theory," you took the definitions for the word "evolution" out of context.

The definition I prefer (from your post above) is...4b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations...

Modifications, changes, not up, down, left, right, or sideways. Can you really say certain species are superior to others??? I can't anyways...they are just different.

Some things do fit the definitions you highlighted above. For instance, our ideas about African-Americans have evolved (or undergone an evolution) since this country began. No one would argue that that is a progessive, upward movement; however, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand of the Theory of Evolution.

BTW, my reply to Melusine was not really clear - the "scientist" I was referring to was me, not Galileo. I intended to make a joke at my own expense, but it was taken out of context.

We are not really challenging your beliefs, Yorick, although I sense some defensiveness. Like others have said, who knows who created the processes of evolution and natural selection? It could very well have been God. You and others have every perfect right to believe in your modern mythology, if it makes you feel better.