Question about Evolution/Creationism etc.

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Well what do you think theological faith does?

Promotes Irrefutable Dogma and A Closed Mind?[/QUOTE]Er... wrong. If anything that would be organised religion, not theological faith. There is a big difference.

I'd class this post as flamebait Dramnek. Yet again another ignorant attempt at insulting those with faith.

It is against the TOC you know.[/QUOTE]Hmmm,
You have to realise that faith in itself is basically looking at the universe and saying:
“I want it to be like this”, Mostly ignoring and/or twisting any evidence that does not fit in with this view.
If I were to say that we should all Embrace democratic socialism as the best method of Government, people would demand evidence & rhetoric as to why this be so, If all I could come up with was “you must have faith in it” and was to use the rejoinder “you don’t understand, you haven’t got faith” to anyone who disagreed I’d be laughed at and not taken seriously as an erstwhile politician.
But then Faith is not about thinking rationally or logically, it is a comforter.
There are no answers, we live to perpetuate our genes, but why bother to even do that?
We seek answers and patterns, we have evolved to do & doing so, and the fact that when it comes down to the fundamental facts of our existence there are none, is more than most people can cope with or take. Therefore to things that promise answers and absolutes we flock, Religion, Faith, Communism, Fascism, and Nazism.
We fail to find answers; we see false patterns and build upon them, from this faith in something arises.
There is no point to life, No meaning to life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death.
And it is this that most people are afraid of, and blind themselves to with faith,
Faith in god, Faith in the dictatorship of the Proletariat, Faith in Technology (e.g the Omega Point theory),
Faith in anything that gives them hope & the promise of eternal life or at least a life of some sort beyond this one.

To quote Kurt Vonnegut:
“Science never cheered anyone up. The truth about the human situation is just too awful”

[Yorick]

Dramnek, let me fix up your post:

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: There is no point to my life, No meaning to my life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death. And it is this what I am afraid of, and blind myself to with faith, Faith in pessimism, Faith in the communist ideology, Faith trying to shoot down people's hope to make me feel better. Faith in anything that lets me think that the promise of eternal life doesn't exist so that I'll feel a bit better if I miss out.

That's what you meant to say wasn't it? You didn't mean to presume to know peoples motivations did you? I mean, you understand that unless you've walked a mile in someones shoes you can't possibly know their motives.

There may not be meaning to your life, but there is to mine, and millions upon millions of my fellow humans. So speak for yourself oh miserable, bitter, wet blanket.

[ 04-24-2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Well what do you think theological faith does?

Promotes Irrefutable Dogma and A Closed Mind?[/QUOTE]Er... wrong. If anything that would be organised religion, not theological faith. There is a big difference.

I'd class this post as flamebait Dramnek. Yet again another ignorant attempt at insulting those with faith.

It is against the TOC you know.[/QUOTE]Hmmm,
You have to realise that faith in itself is basically looking at the universe and saying:
“I want it to be like this”, Mostly ignoring and/or twisting any evidence that does not fit in with this view.
If I were to say that we should all Embrace democratic socialism as the best method of Government, people would demand evidence & rhetoric as to why this be so, If all I could come up with was “you must have faith in it” and was to use the rejoinder “you don’t understand, you haven’t got faith” to anyone who disagreed I’d be laughed at and not taken seriously as an erstwhile politician.
But then Faith is not about thinking rationally or logically, it is a comforter.
There are no answers, we live to perpetuate our genes, but why bother to even do that?
We seek answers and patterns, we have evolved to do & doing so, and the fact that when it comes down to the fundamental facts of our existence there are none, is more than most people can cope with or take. Therefore to things that promise answers and absolutes we flock, Religion, Faith, Communism, Fascism, and Nazism.
We fail to find answers; we see false patterns and build upon them, from this faith in something arises.
There is no point to life, No meaning to life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death.
And it is this that most people are afraid of, and blind themselves to with faith,
Faith in god, Faith in the dictatorship of the Proletariat, Faith in Technology (e.g the Omega Point theory),
Faith in anything that gives them hope & the promise of eternal life or at least a life of some sort beyond this one.

To quote Kurt Vonnegut:
“Science never cheered anyone up. The truth about the human situation is just too awful”[/QUOTE]Faith has nothing at all to do with forcing your image onto the Universe. Faith is not denying reality at all, faith is having a belief in soemthing that cannot be proven. And since it is impossible to prove a negative, no one will ever "Prove" that there is no God. Faith is accepting that no matter what rules the Universe runs on, that there was and is a devine plan.

People incorrectly use words all the time, and if they say silly things like "The fire is not hot, you just have to have faith" is being ridicululous.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: Once again, Yorick, I disagree with you. I refuse to believe that negatives must exist with the positives in the world, for us to appreciate them or for any other reason.

Well believe it or not, darkness, death, hunger, tiredness and repulsion exist in this universe. Consequently we have an understanding of light, life, satisfaction, rest and attraction as a result.

It's not a matter of believing it or not. You simply wouldn't have an awareness of one without the other.

Live with the idea for a while instead of rejecting out of hand everything I suggest in a kneejerk reaction. Try, just for a moment, conceiving of a scenario different to your own: That everything isn't as woeful as you believe.

You might even feel better.

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Well what do you think theological faith does?

Promotes Irrefutable Dogma and A Closed Mind?[/QUOTE]Er... wrong. If anything that would be organised religion, not theological faith. There is a big difference.

I'd class this post as flamebait Dramnek. Yet again another ignorant attempt at insulting those with faith.

It is against the TOC you know.[/QUOTE]Hmmm,
You have to realise that faith in itself is basically looking at the universe and saying:
“I want it to be like this”, Mostly ignoring and/or twisting any evidence that does not fit in with this view.
If I were to say that we should all Embrace democratic socialism as the best method of Government, people would demand evidence & rhetoric as to why this be so, If all I could come up with was “you must have faith in it” and was to use the rejoinder “you don’t understand, you haven’t got faith” to anyone who disagreed I’d be laughed at and not taken seriously as an erstwhile politician.
But then Faith is not about thinking rationally or logically, it is a comforter.
There are no answers, we live to perpetuate our genes, but why bother to even do that?
We seek answers and patterns, we have evolved to do & doing so, and the fact that when it comes down to the fundamental facts of our existence there are none, is more than most people can cope with or take. Therefore to things that promise answers and absolutes we flock, Religion, Faith, Communism, Fascism, and Nazism.
We fail to find answers; we see false patterns and build upon them, from this faith in something arises.
There is no point to life, No meaning to life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death.
And it is this that most people are afraid of, and blind themselves to with faith,
Faith in god, Faith in the dictatorship of the Proletariat, Faith in Technology (e.g the Omega Point theory),
Faith in anything that gives them hope & the promise of eternal life or at least a life of some sort beyond this one.

To quote Kurt Vonnegut:
“Science never cheered anyone up. The truth about the human situation is just too awful”[/QUOTE]Of all the Authors in the history of human kind, you pick Vonnegut as your inspiration?? why not choose a more optimistic person?

Or are you one of those nihlists who just prefer to live with the vision that everything is about destruction rather than focus on the creations?

Vonnegut....good writer, lousey philosopher.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Faith has nothing at all to do with forcing your image onto the Universe. Faith is not denying reality at all, faith is having a belief in soemthing that cannot be proven. And since it is impossible to prove a negative, no one will ever "Prove" that there is no God. Faith is accepting that no matter what rules the Universe runs on, that there was and is a devine plan. People incorrectly use words all the time, and if they say silly things like "The fire is not hot, you just have to have faith" is being ridicululous.

I agree entirely.

The only thing that I can prove is that I exist. For everything else I need differing elements of Faith. Theological Faith being one aspect of that.

But you can't tell Dramnek that. He has a problem with anything resembling spirituality. Completely shuts the door, and tries to insult or incite others in the process.

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Faith has nothing at all to do with forcing your image onto the Universe. Faith is not denying reality at all, faith is having a belief in soemthing that cannot be proven. And since it is impossible to prove a negative, no one will ever "Prove" that there is no God. Faith is accepting that no matter what rules the Universe runs on, that there was and is a devine plan. People incorrectly use words all the time, and if they say silly things like "The fire is not hot, you just have to have faith" is being ridicululous.

I agree entirely.

The only thing that I can prove is that I exist. For everything else I need differing elements of Faith. Theological Faith being one aspect of that.

But you can't tell Dramnek that. He has a problem with anything resembling spirituality. Completely shuts the door, and tries to insult or incite others in the process.[/QUOTE]Pulling the Cogito eh? + An “Ad hominem” attack.
The problem is that faith in the fact the water boils (for example) & faith that a god exists are two very different things.
It is quite reasonable to assume from my daily experiences that People & water & kettles exist. I have seen them, I have used them. I have seen heated water boil, I have heated water and seen it boil. Any other human can verify this for you, all you need to do is to heat some water in front of them.
The fact that water boils can be arrived at from a logical chain of rational thought, and be proved within all reasonable parameters for judging our everyday existence. It is not really an act of faith; there is evidence for it, evidence that no rational person, acting on logical standards will deny.
But for Theological faith there is none.
Think about it, You cannot prove that a god exists, and yet people create stuff based around what they think a god would want, but without any reasonable evidence to indcate what it is this god wants or even if they exist. essentially creating castles in the sky with no evidence to create the foundations, this is essentially forcing your own views onto the universe.

Originally posted by Yorick: But you can't tell Dramnek that. He has a problem with anything resembling spirituality. Completely shuts the door, and tries to insult or incite others in the process.

Which is amusing as he can no more prove the spirit DOESN'T exist any more than we can prove it CAN

[Sir Michael]

I am at a loss of how to continue this pointless discussion, and it has stopped being interesting, fun, (or even civil) so I won't...

All I can say is that I agree with you Dramnek Ulk, and that this discussion started out as a simple explanation of the theory of evolution, which got turned into a creationism vs. evolution debate by the Ned Flanders of this board, which I tried to deal with with scientific logic, which is all I know. Perhaps I should have directly stated my viewpoint like you did, and we might be in a different place now.

From Yorick: There is no point to my life, No meaning to my life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death. And it is this what I am afraid of, and blind myself to with faith, Faith in pessimism, Faith in the communist ideology, Faith trying to shoot down people's hope to make me feel better. Faith in anything that lets me think that the promise of eternal life doesn't exist so that I'll feel a bit better if I miss out.

Yorick, your perversion of his words, which were clearly his opinion, (and which he is not alone with), is one of the most disgusting, flaming things I have ever seen on any discussion board anywhere. You've gone from flame-bait (to use your phrase) to out-and-out flaming. Now who's violating the TOS?

Once again, Yorick, I disagree with you. I refuse to believe that negatives must exist with the positives in the world, for us to appreciate them or for any other reason. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well believe it or not, darkness, death, hunger, tiredness and repulsion exist in this universe. Consequently we have an understanding of light, life, satisfaction, rest and attraction as a result.

I was actually referring more to human controlled activities like war, but so be it. Maybe now, you're showing your own pessimism and negativity. Who says darkness is any more "negative" than the light? (I actually prefer the nighttime.) Likewise with the rest. It is all in perspective. I appreciate life just fine without thinking about dying, and so on.

It's not a matter of believing it or not. You simply wouldn't have an awareness of one without the other.

Now you're just being ridiculous. We also wouldn't be human, or have an existence anything like we have now.

Live with the idea for a while instead of rejecting out of hand everything I suggest in a kneejerk reaction. Try, just for a moment, conceiving of a scenario different to your own: That everything isn't as woeful as you believe. You might even feel better.

I feel fine. That whole quote could also apply to you, BTW, just change "woeful" to "wonderful."

Touche...the last word is yours (or anyone else who wants it), good sir.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Pulling the Cogito eh? + An “Ad hominem” attack. The problem is that faith in the fact the water boils (for example) & faith that a god exists are two very different things. It is quite reasonable to assume from my daily experiences that People & water & kettles exist. I have seen them, I have used them. I have seen heated water boil, I have heated water and seen it boil. Any other human can verify this for you, all you need to do is to heat some water in front of them. The fact that water boils can be arrived at from a logical chain of rational thought, and be proved within all reasonable parameters for judging our everyday existence. It is not really an act of faith; there is evidence for it, evidence that no rational person, acting on logical standards will deny. But for Theological faith there is none. Think about it, You cannot prove that a god exists, and yet people create stuff based around what they think a god would want, but without any reasonable evidence to indcate what it is this god wants or even if they exist. essentially creating castles in the sky with no evidence to create the foundations, this is essentially forcing your own views onto the universe.

Again you speak for others. Why don't you let people of faith speak for themselves?

Do you honestly think with the reasoning I or Cheetah, MagiK, Cherek, or Leonis have used in my posts that we are idiots? Every conclusion I have come to regarding God is arrived at using the same reasoning as you use for water boiling.

Event - reception - analysis - conclusion.

God is alive and affects many of us every day. Like the wind, love or hope, God is as real as any of these. With spiritual awareness, you can actually feel his presence. Hear his effect on, or through people, see his handiwork.

How dare you RIDICULE the thought processes of intelligent men and women who have come to a different conclusion to you! Where is YOUR tolerance Dramnek?

We are using the same senses to achieve differing conclusions. I'd say Vive le difference. Never have I accused an athiest of having no logic, being stupid or building castles in the sky as you have accused us. I have numerous friends who are athiests.

Have you friends who are religious?