Party casters - comments needed

[DraconisRex]

Bard -

Why so much in Charisma? You only do Level 6 spells unless you're in Heart of Winter Mode, and if you were, you wouldn't be asking these questions...

Start with 14. Put your Level 12 & Level 16 level ups into Charisma. More points into INT & DEX. You need the DEX modifier to help with your Open/Disarm skills. You need INT to get points to put into Open/Disarm + Concentration + Use Magic Item skills.

And why have a Rogue if you're going to have a Bard? Or, why have a Bard when you're going to have a Rogue? Neither really fights worth a darn.

The biggest upside with a Bard is they have Bard Song, plus cast some healing spells, plus some combat spells AND they open locks. In short, great support PCs, but not for either mano-et-mano or heavy artilary.

Wizard -

Teiflings are the best Wizards. Bar none. A 20 DEX won't keep your wizard alive when he gets rushed. Better to have a shield dwarf wizard and go with a 20 CON or a tiefling and go with 20 INT.

The order of importance of abilities for Wizards is - INT, CON & DEX. A Tiefling gives you +2 total ability points. But can allow a 20 starting INT.

Cleric -

Morninglord is good. So is Ilmater and Selune. Tempus is nice if you're lacking in tanks. Stay away from Moon Elfs. Clerics need HIGH CON, besides WIS & CHA. A dead cleric does you no good.

Party Balance -

I use the rule of 5-Core + Option. Core = 2 Fighter-types, 1 Cleric-type, 1 Rogue-type, 1 Mage-type. You've got all that. Your Bard would classify in the "Option."

[Gimli]

Thanks for the reply - I've played the party today to almost 3rd level, they finished up in Talos and are heading to the bridge area next. I did tweak the bard and cleric a bit as I'll explain below.

"Bard -

Why so much in Charisma? You only do Level 6 spells unless you're in Heart of Winter Mode, and if you were, you wouldn't be asking these questions...

Start with 14. Put your Level 12 & Level 16 level ups into Charisma. More points into INT & DEX. You need the DEX modifier to help with your Open/Disarm skills. You need INT to get points to put into Open/Disarm + Concentration + Use Magic Item skills."

Basically because the Bard spells are Cha based, and I see this Bard using some offensive magic, so with a high Cha and SF/GSF he'll be more effective that way. Plus it helps with Bluff, I switch back and forth between the Bard and Pally as the group leader depending on the situation. Also I switched him to a Moon Elf, lowered Cha to 16 and raised Dex to a 16 (lowered Con to 12, might regret that one later). He's also going to be an archer type as I don't see him tanking unless he's buffed with spells or in a dire emergency. He gets the free bow feat as an elf, and I'll take weapon focus in bow and rapid fire as well. Maybe I will raise Con to at least a 14 at 4th/8th and then either go with Cha or Dex at 12th/16th, depends on what I think I need as the game goes on. My bard won't open/disarm/use magic item, those are going to be covered by my rogue. The bard is going for bluff, concentration and pick pocket.

"And why have a Rogue if you're going to have a Bard? Or, why have a Bard when you're going to have a Rogue? Neither really fights worth a darn."

Well I think they will be effective in their different ways; the bard in ways I pointed out in an earlier post, and mine I am not using in a rogue-like way really at all (other than pick pocket); the rogue needs to be there for open/disarm/search, will be the scout, and will be a backstabbing-type fighter which I think will come in handy quite often (it's already been useful, especially vs that goblin leader who was a spell caster).

"The biggest upside with a Bard is they have Bard Song, plus cast some healing spells, plus some combat spells AND they open locks. In short, great support PCs, but not for either mano-et-mano or heavy artilary."

Hopefully with mine as an added bonus he'll be an effective archer to boot; and I also looked at the #6 slot as my optional character and thought the bard was a great choice. Certainly not the only choice, but it's a unique class and will make all the other characters better with the bard songs.

"Wizard -

Teiflings are the best Wizards. Bar none. A 20 DEX won't keep your wizard alive when he gets rushed. Better to have a shield dwarf wizard and go with a 20 CON or a tiefling and go with 20 INT.

The order of importance of abilities for Wizards is - INT, CON & DEX. A Tiefling gives you +2 total ability points. But can allow a 20 starting INT."

Well I already had a Tiefling as my rogue and wanted some variety, plus a pyro halfling mage is just a roleplaying choice (a friend used to run one in a PnP game years back). Also there's no ECL level penalty for the halfling and they get the extra feat (strongheart that is). So while I agree a Tiefling is a good choice, I think the Halfling is pretty rockin as well.

"Cleric -

Morninglord is good. So is Ilmater and Selune. Tempus is nice if you're lacking in tanks. Stay away from Moon Elfs. Clerics need HIGH CON, besides WIS & CHA. A dead cleric does you no good."

I also modified this one to be a Gold Dwarf and decided to make him more of a melee guy and less of an archer, letting the bard be the archer instead. So the Con went up to an 18 to make him more durable. He focused on simple weapon:mace to start and is doing well with a morningstar. Plus I just love the domain spells of Lathander.

"Party Balance -

I use the rule of 5-Core + Option. Core = 2 Fighter-types, 1 Cleric-type, 1 Rogue-type, 1 Mage-type. You've got all that. Your Bard would classify in the "Option.""

I agree with this formula; at first my option guy was going to be either a second Wizard or Sorcerer, but I opted for the Bard.

So far I must say that compared to the first party I played with (and didn't plan out as well) these guys have been very effective and are a great team together, their skills cover pretty much every situation, and so far no one has died (the halfling got fried down to 1 hp once by a burning hands spell but didn't bite the dust).

[Grishnakh]

Gimli, you are right, we think almost the same. But still I can't find the bard an option for my party. He needs high Charisma. I have a sorcerer with Charisma that can replace my usual leader the paladin when it comes to receiving rewards. The bard has those songs, but the cleric can cast bless, chant, prayer, recitation, defensive harmony etc.My sorcerer also knows Emotion Hope so I have plenty of spells that can help my party during a hard fight.
Someone said something about bard and rogue classes. The only situation when I find usefull a bard is if you don't have a rogue in the party.What good a character that can't become a master in anything.
I choose monk because I wanted to try this class. I never used it before (a had a druid instead) but I played NWN and the monk henchmen, the dwarf, was a real killer.
Besides a monk will prove very useful in Chapter IV when you must face the challenges in a monastery.
Yeah Tempus is a really powerful cleric. I think she is the most powerful cleric that I ever had in a AD&D game. He is on 2nd place in my oarty with 25% of kills (very close to my dwarf fighter). If you have an undead battle (and there are a lot in this game) she (my cleric) can kill them in no time with Turn Undead.

[Gimli]

Well again if I play a second time through, I would most likely take a Sorcerer over the Wizard, but I wanted a generalist Wizard this time through so I can try out all the spells and know which ones I'd consider must-haves for a Sorcerer. Also the 4 extra feats a Wizard gets are pretty darned nice, as well as all the skill points from Int. I think they're both really good party choices. You could say mine is rogue-heavy, and I could say yours is tank-heavy, but I would say both parties would kick butt.

Oh another point about halflings as Wizards. If he does get rushed, he's harder to hit because of his small stature, that's something only a halfling or gnome (another favorite caster choice of mine) can say.

[Grishnakh]

Yeah now that you mention it my party seems a bit tank-like. I think is the most effective party that I had. I BG or IWD I i could't play the game on normal like I do now. That means experience in AD&D games. Now I'm pretty sure how it goes. Anyway I like better the heavy parties rather than rogue-like parties, but in the end is a matter of taste and style of playing. If you are very happy with your party and don't have problems in the game, stick with the bard and wizard.
One question: in the race description it says that a dwarf get a bonus to armor class when fighting giants, but when I played the Battle Square Mastery my dwarf took a lot of damage from a Frost Giant. Does this racial feat really work?

[Gimli]

Also Lady Zeke, you're too "half" heavy, lol - half orc, halfling, 2 half elves

[Gimli]

I should work, I guess the only way to know would be to scroll back through the combat logs, know what the giant's BAB was, and see what kind of rolls he needed to hit the dwarf.