Double standards on Israel - Palestine

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yorick, you are carrying the child analogy too far. That is not what either I or Fljotsdale were saying. In any case, if the position that we are to take is that because each of us as individuals, or as countries, have done wrong in the past, that we can never work to prevent wrong in the present or future, then mankind is doomed.

Dio, an analogy has to be explored if it is to stand up. I didn't use it first...

I am talking about how an individual shouldn't be quick to judge someone else unless they are a)in their shoes or b)blameless.

America are now victims of suicide terrorism. Like Israel, they are now seeking to prevent the unpreventable. I for one would never judge the actions of a nation that is surrounded by hostlie enemies, sending in children to explode at any time. I don't know how they don't crack up.

Actually an Israeli I ws speaking to this week mentioned that people from Jerusalem, have "Jerusalem syndrome", and are in fact a little crazy. She started in jest as there was a male from the city nearby, but as he moved away, turned serious.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Yorick, think about what you are saying. Are we to go back 1,500 years ago and rearrange the world's people's the way they were then? Are we to hold grudges for 1,500 years? Why in the world do we see the absurdity of that position for every people on earth, EXCEPT for the Israelis? Is it religious?

Dio, there are only two nations in Israels situation. The Jewish nation, and the Gypsies, or Romanies as I believe they've called themselves. The Romanies have no homeland however. Some believe they are descended from the Coptic Egyptians (hence "Gypsie") and if so, the Arabian invasion would be responsible for two homeless peoples.

In many nations there are mechanisms in place to cater for earlier inhabitants of the nation. The Lapps in Scandinavia, the Ainu in Japan, the Aboriginals of Australia, the Fijians in the face of an Indian majority in Fiji, The Amerindian, the Jew, the South African black majority there, Sorbs in the East German forests, the Basques in Spain and France, and Celts in Wales. The answer is yes. We should go back wherever possible. Why view history with a short term mindset? America is a new nation. It is understandable that the perspective is a more recent one. England has no such excuse.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Silver Cheetah, from my perspective the media does not portray the situation fairly. All to often I hear opinions such as yours. I don't know how the situation is in England, but in Australia there are way more Arabs than Jews. Even in high school as a child I remember hearing constant criticisms about Israel, and I would often think "What are they to do? Not exist?" Your argument is more prvalent than you perhaps realise. I apologise if my post was overly aggressive and if my Nazi analogy was offensive to you. It was my intent to create a realisation that that kind of thinking does not promote a workable solution to the eternal "problem" of the Jewish nation. Have a good day Silver

Thanks Yorick! Apology accepted, of course! And thanks for your explanation, which has clarified your feelings on the matter for me.

A small point, - in Britain, the thinking seems far more pro-Israeli than anything else. Generally speaking, it is mainly the left wing that has any kind of pro-Palestinian Arab viewpoint. (At least that is my perception...)

I didn't become at all polically aware until quite late on. It wasn't until I started taking a rather deeper look at the Israel situation than that portrayed by the popular media that I realised the Arabs might not be the '100% bad guys', that I had assumed they were. My opinions, until the time when I began to think for myself (very late, to my shame!) were formed by the media, and were pro-Israeli as a matter of course. It is only relatively recently that that has changed. (However, I am not anti Jew! Why would I be? They are people, like the rest of us. However, I am anti fundamentalist thinking. And there are fundamentalists on both sides (for whatever reasons...)

Here there isn't much criticism at all about Israel and the Jews, and it hasn't come across to me that there is much in America, either. It was, and is, my feeling that I was articulating a minority view. My post was very much a reaction to some of the anti-Arab sentiment that surfaced in the forum (and outside of it) after the terror attacks, and the portrayal by various elements of the Palestinians as simply and solely terrorists and the Israelis as simply and solely victims, neither of which is the case. (I won't go into that again, because I've already said all I'm going to).

But thank you for the points you made. It is always good to get another point of view!



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

[Yorick]

You know, I actually met up with a friend of mine from Australia here in NYC, of South American descent. It turns out she has a Jewish parent, but hid the fact while growing up in Australia. Why?

To children as she was growing up, a "Jew" was someone stingy with money. Anti semetism, however mild, is alive and well. It is an evil given justification by Israeli actions.

In attempting to find balance and a self informed viewpoint you should perhaps be mindful of not swinging the pendulum to far the other way.

I find it interesting that both our opinions are against the popular tide from where we are from.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Yorick]

I should also point out that I have a very good Arabian Christian friend here in NYC, that I was in bands with Arabs as an adolescent, that near where I spent ten years as a child there was a heavy Arabic majority, and thus my palette includes hommos, tabouli, kebabs, and those yummy sweets. Thus, I am very familiar with the Arabic point of view on the situation, and have quite frequently had to be very diplomatic in my objections. I have also had to deal with the threat of violence/crime from the said nationality, and the threat of brotherly friendship as well.

It concerns me when I hear the opinions you hold expressed with such strength from non-Arabs.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. Here's to international misunderstanding...oops, I mean.... ah bugger!

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: I find it interesting that both our opinions are against the popular tide from where we are from.

Is that because we both have questioning natures or because we are both rebels?I think perhaps that having a questioning nature leads one to question received wisdom, and thus one is perceived as rebellious.

However, as I said before, I didn't start questioning the world around me until quite late. Fanatical Jehovah's Witness mother (oops, sorry Fljots, - you are THE most fabulous mother these days, and you know it.... ) and domineering 'I know everything and you know nothing' father rather squashed that bit of me for a while...

Spent a long time experiencing some of the more unpleasant aspects of this world, as opposed to asking what on earth they were doing there...... However, once I'd jumped that hurdle, I never looked back. These days I have my ■■■■■ cat nose into everything! (Probably why it's covered in bites...)


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination



[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-26-2001).]

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: ...and domineering 'I know everything and you know nothing' father rather squashed that bit of me for a while...

So, you too, huh? I grew up thinking that my opinion wasn't worth anything.

That's why I find it difficult at times to post in threads like this. I'm torn between my heart and my head on this one. I think everyone here has had some very valid points and I've learned a great deal, too, just lurking in this one.

You are all very good people here. Just because you may not agree with one another, don't forget that you are all still, at the heart of it all, good people.

(I'll go back to lurking now.)

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Mage extraordinair.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Is that because we both have questioning natures or because we are both rebels?I think perhaps that having a questioning nature leads one to question received wisdom, and thus one is perceived as rebellious. However, as I said before, I didn't start questioning the world around me until quite late. Fanatical Jehovah's Witness mother (oops, sorry Fljots, - you are THE most fabulous mother these days, and you know it.... ) and domineering 'I know everything and you know nothing' father rather squashed that bit of me for a while... Spent a long time experiencing some of the more unpleasant aspects of this world, as opposed to asking what on earth they were doing there...... However, once I'd jumped that hurdle, I never looked back. These days I have my ■■■■■ cat nose into everything! (Probably why it's covered in bites...)

Interesting. I don't know. My father and mother weren't repressive of opinions. My father is an Anglican minister. Never did I hear objections about playing rock music, growing my hair, leaning towards the neo-hippy movement over a decade ago, or holding theological opinions different to his own.

We've had many great theological discussions over the years and he's been quite complimentary of me which does wonders for self esteem I can tell you. (plus healed some troubles we had in my early childhood)

The tide I swim against is perhaps more populist in nature, rather than family orientated. I find it interesting coming to America and seeing some things on the television claiming to be "religious" yet seeming more like a steak knife salesman. I wonder if being surrounded by faux-christianity, the truth I believe I possess would have been obscured by the actions of the fraudulent.

No. I've never been one to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That would be akin to breaking up with a girlfriend purely because her friends piss me off.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!



[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by DragonMage: So, you too, huh? I grew up thinking that my opinion wasn't worth anything. That's why I find it difficult at times to post in threads like this. I'm torn between my heart and my head on this one. I think everyone here has had some very valid points and I've learned a great deal, too, just lurking in this one. You are all very good people here. Just because you may not agree with one another, don't forget that you are all still, at the heart of it all, good people. (I'll go back to lurking now.)

Yes, it can be a long journey to the Land of Self Esteem, can't it, DragonMage? And there is generally a little piece of us, that child part, that even then, after much work, isn't quite convinced that we're worthy. But we all are, just because we are human. Not because we are clever, or pretty, or athletic, just because we are us, because we exist. It's our birthright, to be loved. Unfortunately, some of us (I'm not talking about me now!) have never known that birthright.

Re the comment about people posting here and elsewhere on the forum, yes, I agree in spades! I think it's often not so much a case of being right or wrong, as of bringing who you are and what you feel to a discussion, a communication amongst equals. That way we all get to know and understand each other better, and also are privy to information that may inform and expand our views either now or in the future.

I'd like to sail that comment about good people right back at you, dear DragonMage. You seem a very lovely person, and I'm very glad to know you.


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

[Yorick]

Originally posted by DragonMage: So, you too, huh? I grew up thinking that my opinion wasn't worth anything. That's why I find it difficult at times to post in threads like this. I'm torn between my heart and my head on this one. I think everyone here has had some very valid points and I've learned a great deal, too, just lurking in this one. You are all very good people here. Just because you may not agree with one another, don't forget that you are all still, at the heart of it all, good people. (I'll go back to lurking now.)

Aww Dragonmage! Post away! Be encouraged! I've seen your opinions on other threads. You seem well versed.

(Holds breath waiting for an anti Israeli rant... )



Seriously, don't feel you can't voice your mind. All are welcome.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!