Mathematics

[Nerull]

Originally posted by sultan: some of the earlier comments about how mathematics teaches logic and problem solving are spot on. the point is that the content of the material that's taught (eg a-squared equals b-squared plus c-squared) is only a small part of what you're learning. the best teachers know this, explain it to their students, and inspire them with stories and anecdotes and a personal affinity.

Exactly. I had good teachers in that regard, and I left the math major behind once I started getting a bunch that were the opposite (actually, I had fallen out of love with math as a major before then (just wasn't the right path for me), but that was the last straw).

I remember hating word problems, because they never started you with the equation (you had to actually review the problem, and set up the problem based upon the situation; you were not "spoon fed" the equation). Now that I look back, I now know why teachers force fed you so many of them. Being able to look at all of the facts (many of which are irrelevent for what you are doing) and weed out the important facts for consideration is a valuable skill. All situations you run into in the real world are usually clogged up with facts and events that, if you boil the problem down, really have no bearing on the problem other than to confuse you.

Originally posted by sultan: on a more personal note, i've always felt the learning of maths and science would be better facilitated using personae from history to teach the evolution of thinking in a story-telling fashion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Kind of like that movie Teachers. One of the subplots involves a guy escaping from an asylum, and posing as a teacher. The big thing is, he actually dresses up as the historical characters that he is talking in the history class, and goes full out into the role. However, as he is in role, he is interacting with the class, asking them questions and making statements in character about the important facts. The tragic part is that he is exposed and taken away; he turns out to be an outstanding teacher, because he gets everyone involved in his roleplaying, and as such they ended up learning and retaining that knowledge (classic scene: he is playing George Washington, and has all of the desks moved to the outer edges of the room. All of the chairs are in the center of the room, in the shape of a rowboat. He is standing up in the center of the chairs, while he has given paddles to each of the people in the class, who are sitting there rowing away (taken right from that old painting of Washington crossing the Delaware). The whole time, he is talking like George Washington, asking questions about the war and why they are crossing the river).

[Maelakin]

Here is a list of the types of math I use daily:

Algebra
Geometry
Trigonometry
Calculus
Statistics

My job is managing a group of accountants (statistics and algebra play major roles here). The rest of the math plays a part in my every day job when I am responsible for procuring a projected profit and loss statement for my department quarterly, based upon 50 years of sales data. Welcome to executive management, the last place I would have expected to find math of this level necessary.

[Gabrielles blades]

i somewhat enjoy math more than other subjects (such as english) but still believe it is next to useless in the real world once you get past that level that isnt used by anyone but certain professions.

The method i learned math was prety much memorize formule A, reasons why to apply formula A, and then doing problems involving that formula till i worked out the various 'kinks' that they like to throw in to make it more difficult. This didnt teach me anything about analytical thinking or good planning; i learned these things in the real world (games!) i mean really, untill college every single class seems to be just memorization of a technique or information temporarily. Heck, a lot of college courses are like that. there are very very very few classes that focus on you thinking for yourself, coming up with your own answers, planning/analyzing situations etc.

Science courses in college *really* try hard to screw you up; most will not give you any problems even remotely like the ones you see on the homework. they are *real* challenges to solve since you are supposed to be able to by connecting the various techniques learned to solve other problems and using common sense. Really, physics based courses teach you to think (or fail you!); its too bad most other classes arent like this; course if they did id be willing to bet most people would fail since they dont generaly teach you to think earlier. I suppose if they taught this way from day 1 in kindergarden we would end up with a heck of a lot more thinking oriented people and much fewer memorizers.

Originally posted by Nerull: Kind of like that movie Teachers.

that sounds awesome - thanks! something to rent for the weekend

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: i somewhat enjoy math more than other subjects (such as english) but still believe it is next to useless in the real world once you get past that level that isnt used by anyone but certain professions. The method i learned math was prety much memorize formule A, reasons why to apply formula A, and then doing problems involving that formula till i worked out the various 'kinks' that they like to throw in to make it more difficult. This didnt teach me anything about analytical thinking or good planning; i learned these things in the real world (games!) i mean really, untill college every single class seems to be just memorization of a technique or information temporarily. Heck, a lot of college courses are like that. there are very very very few classes that focus on you thinking for yourself, coming up with your own answers, planning/analyzing situations etc.

You said it there. The kinks are like red herrings which cause many to peceive maths as difficult. Difficult is not the right word as the only time you cannot do maths is when you have not memorized the formula and become familiar with these kinks. There is nothing difficult about that - you either know it or you don't.

[Bungleau]

Hmmm... who uses math?

Programmers
Accountants
Engineers
Bankers
Lawyers
Doctors
Scientists
Managers
Carpenters
Stonemasons
Bricklayers
Special effects guys in movies
Artists
Consultants
Analysts
Pizza delivery guys
Inventors
Roller coaster designers
Rocket scientists
Rock stars
Authors

And the list goes on. Maybe a better question is who DOESN't use math. Any takers?

Some people may argue against some of these. I'll defend all of them, so long as you let me address any jobs you think don't use math...

I believe I agree with what's been said thus far -- you may not use all your math skills all the time, and some but rarely, but the more you have, the more you can handle everyday situations without a worry.

[SpiritWarrior]

Majority of these professions incorporate basic calculations. This is something that is taught in schools yes but is actually part of our own instincts. Even animals can do these basic calculations. The rest of them, well...they use calculators to save on time [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[Firestormalpha]

Bungleau, I don't know if I missed a post somewhere, but I don't think anyone claimed there was a job that didn't use math. Only jobs that didn't uses higher maths. All occupations, and the vast majority of basic daily activities incorporate some level of basic math.

[Azred]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I once put the same question to a teacher of mine and his answer was "It expands the mind". I accepted that at the time but given further years of experience and thought I have come to the conclusion that it does not. Maths is simply memorization and application. It does nothing to broaden the mind...the memory yes but not the mind.

My question is "why haven't you broadened you mind yet?"

I don't know if you study martial arts, but if you do then you know that when you are first starting that all you are really doing is memorization: hold your hand/wrist this way when punching, keep your toes curled back when kicking, the sequence of moves in the basic kata, etc. As you progress you understand more of the true nature of the moves you are doing and they become instinctive and natural.
This same process occurs with mathematics (or any topic of study)--the basics like the soltution of the general quadratic equation must be memorized; only after you reach a certain point do you begin to understand what the solution really means and how to apply it more generally.

Memorization has its place in learning. The true key to learning and understanding is when you are able to apply what you have memorized to more general problems/situations. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: The method i learned math was prety much memorize formule A, reasons why to apply formula A, and then doing problems involving that formula till i worked out the various 'kinks' that they like to throw in to make it more difficult.

I'm not familiar with american math courses, just what are these "kinks", an example perhaps?