Mathematics

[Vaskez]

Maths is probably the single most important subject IMO. It won't do you any harm to excercise your brain and learn these higher level topics. Besides, as people have said, basic calculus is very useful - you use it all the time, even if you don't think about it - whenever you talk about the rate of change of something, you are talking about basic calculus. And then if you do ever do anything like chemistry or electronics you're going to need all that maths. Even if you don't use it, you will have trained your brain to think logically and understand difficult concepts. I know it's not fun and it's hard but in the end you're better off for it. As 2Pac once said (and probably others too) "That which does not kill me, can only make me stronger" and this statement is very true.

[Sir Kenyth]

I have remorse at not going on to higher math than I did. College in general actually. Then again, at school age, I wasn't half as interested in learning. By the time I realized what I was missing, I was too old and had too many time consuming responsibilities for serious college classes. Take heed all you young folks, having kids, your own house, and a full time job will likely be the end of your educational opportunities. There are only so many hours in the day and everything demands them.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: I have remorse at not going on to higher math than I did. College in general actually. Then again, at school age, I wasn't half as interested in learning. By the time I realized what I was missing, I was too old and had too many time consuming responsibilities for serious college classes. Take heed all you young folks, having kids, your own house, and a full time job will likely be the end of your educational opportunities. There are only so many hours in the day and everything demands them.

Yes I agree with this totally [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I really think that there is too much focus on grades and rewards and getting something material at the end of school that kids aren't appreciating learning for its own sake. So long as there are material rewards for something, the intrinsic value of that thing will be lost. And so you get most students bemoaning the fact that have to learn 'useless' information - so learning is not an end in itself. They need to appreciate the fact that by learning, they're gaining something so valuable, NOT that it might be useful for something in the future.

Most students misunderstand the point of school. It is not to provide all the information that you will need when you go out into the workforce and get a job and no more. Of course, it could not! - that's what universities, tafes, apprenitceships, job training, etc are for. It is about providing kids with an education to make them full, well-rounded, knowledgeable adults. When you think about it, most of what we learn is 'useless'. You will never *need* to know anything about literature, most science, history, art, music. A large proportion of adults could have been taught to read and write, add, subtract, multiply, divide, the basics of replacing values with symbols, then some 'practical skills' - how to cook a meal, change your oil, manage a budget, use a computer, and then you'd be done! Don't worry about any of that other stuff - you'll never actually *need* to know about what cells are, or who Shakespeare was, or how to figure out the length of the hypotenuse. You could leave at maybe 12. My great-grandfather actually left school at 11 and worked on a farm. No worries at all.

But you can't go out into the workforce at 12 - you don't have the maturity or the endurance or the cognitive capacity. So you go to school and they give you - essentially for free, of course your parents pay taxes, but *you* don't have to do anything but turn up and learn - information and knowledge and skills in a huge variety of subjects. I've never been a big fan of the whole 'be happy because others are worse off', as it leads to stagnation of progress (gee I wish this technology was bigger, faster, more efficient - but can't complain! at least I have running water), but I really think that since it's there, why complain? Why would anyone choose to be ignorant when they don't have to be? It's not being forced on you, they're giving it to you, and you don't have to do anything but accept it.

It's funny how the irrelevance of 'fun' subjects like art and music are forgiven

I do think that schools and teachers need to do a better job showing students the relevance and utility of a lot of the curriculum that is taught. Evidence shows that subjects that kids believe are useful or will help them later in life are more enjoyed and attended more often. For example, the LOTE (languages other than english) program that is used in Australia is hugely popular - on a par with 'fun' subjects like home economics and art, and disproportionately for a 'academic' subject and compared to other language courses in other countries - because it is actively sold to students as being interesting, relevant, and useful in their careers. A lot of stuff that is taught can be really difficult to grasp the relevance of - maths is certainly one example, but also literature (why do we have to analyse this poem?), science, history, etc. Partly because students don't really know what the breadth of careers and jobs are out there! I know I had no clue, and yet we were expected to choose appropriate subjects for senior that would help us enter university courses for careers which we didn't know about.

Sorry that turned out so long [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Davros]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I really think that there is too much focus on grades

Cough cough chuckle - excellent post Aelia, and it is a sad state of affairs that I should so shorten it to a simple half sentence. I am risking copping a thwack on the head with a willow stick, but Aelia and I have discussed GPA's (Grade Point Averages) on more than a few occasions, and hers is way better than mine was .

[Vaskez]

In short the biggest single problem is that kids aren't wise or experienced enough to realise what to take away from what they are taught and what to choose to learn. As has been said: that's the teacher's job to somehow convince them of what is worth taking away and not to give up when something seems too hard. I know I hated maths until I actually started to get quite good at it and then I liked it more. The only reason I tried to get into it was that I knew that even though I hated it, I needed it. Also makes me proud when I learn stuff that say, only 1% or 0.1% or less of the population knows.

[ 11-12-2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Sythe]

Well I still think that Math SUCKS
Especially Algerbra (Man learning that was taking a walk in Hell)
Sometimes when I do math I get frustrated. Not because the problem is too hard it's because I will never use this kind of junk later in my life. Unless I am going to become an engineer or something. Which I won't I have the same thoughts on biolgy. And besides as the years past my memory of the useless stuff I learned would get all blurry and forget some of it.

[ 11-12-2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Sythe ]

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Vaskez: In short the biggest single problem is that kids aren't wise or experienced enough to realise what to take away from what they are taught and what to choose to learn. As has been said: that's the teacher's job to somehow convince them of what is worth taking away and not to give up when something seems too hard. I know I hated maths until I actually started to get quite good at it and then I liked it more. The only reason I tried to get into it was that I knew that even though I hated it, I needed it. Also makes me proud when I learn stuff that say, only 1% or 0.1% or less of the population knows.

I forget who said this quote: "youth is wasted on the young". However, it is absolutely true. When you are going through school, you trudge through most of the subjects wondering what you will ever use any of it for. When you get older, you look back and wish you had applied yourself more in school, and took the time to retain a better portion of it.

I use math every day. This is the case even if I am not dealing with a single number. Every day, I come across the same old situations everyone else does, but regularly I get complimented on how much I can accomplish compared to other workers. The reason? I took higher level math classes. I couldn't tell you how to do an integration problem anymore, but I learned the lessons underneath the math. I learned how to break down the big, chaotic situation into the elements that are important for what needs to be done, then how to plan my course of action by setting up these elements in the way that allows me to grasp the problem as a whole much easier. Then, I come up with the best solution given the elements of the problem, and implement the solution. The simpler math classes gave me the basic knowledge of how to do that, and the more advanced classes grilled me on that sufficiently enough that I can do it quickly and without second-guessing myself. You may not use the math in your career, but think about how many times good planning and analytical thinking skills help you, both at work and at home.

[Firestormalpha]

Originally posted by Nerull: I forget who said this quote: "youth is wasted on the young".

I'm not sure who originally said it, but the first time I heard it was from King Picolo from the Dragonball series.

[SpiritWarrior]

I once put the same question to a teacher of mine and his answer was "It expands the mind". I accepted that at the time but given further years of experience and thought I have come to the conclusion that it does not. Maths is simply memorization and application. It does nothing to broaden the mind...the memory yes but not the mind.

[ 11-12-2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]

Sythe - i hope you can see from the comments of people who've left school that it is pretty common for people to find that they actually did need some of that stuff they thought was a waste of time, and to wish to have those lost opportunites back again.

Spirit Warrior - unfortunately, your comments regarding "memorisation and application" are only too true, but only in as much as they represent poor teachers. or, to put it another way, ANY subject that relies on memorisation and application is bound to be dull and not actually encourage learning.

some of the earlier comments about how mathematics teaches logic and problem solving are spot on. the point is that the content of the material that's taught (eg a-squared equals b-squared plus c-squared) is only a small part of what you're learning. the best teachers know this, explain it to their students, and inspire them with stories and anecdotes and a personal affinity.

given my, and others, advice to sythe about taking advantage of learning opportunities, i'd recommend that you, spirit warrior, not let your teachers get in the way of your learning. in the long run, the only person that suffers is you.

on a more personal note, i've always felt the learning of maths and science would be better facilitated using personae from history to teach the evolution of thinking in a story-telling fashion. [img]smile.gif[/img]