06-26-2002, 11:06 PM | #11 |
Xanathar Thieves Guild
Join Date: January 18, 2002
Age: 38
Posts: 4,557
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Hmm, i saw this on the news not an hour ago! It is his daughter who is uncomfortable saying it, it seems...
But i agree with Jahanna and Chewbacca; it never really made me uncomfortable, but i could never help wondering how the strong atheists(sp?) felt about it. Thats as far as im gonna take this one [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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06-27-2002, 12:04 AM | #12 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
As far as I know there are NO laws stating that the pledge MUST BE SAID IN SCHOOL. It is voluntary to say the pledge!!!!!!!! Since the pledge is voluntary (you can say it or NOT say it) how can it be a violation of anyones rights? I know someone will bring up the esteem of someone that doesn't wish to say the pledge with "under God" in it. To that I say what about the esteem of the people that want to say "Under God"? Are not their rights just as valid? Personally I don't really care what the 9th circut court of apeals ruled. I'm going to say the pledge when ever I Want too! with the phrase "Under God" in it, if you don't like it too bad! If you do like it too Bad! I don't say the pledge of allegance for any human on this earth but me! And I answer to no human on this earth for any pledges that I make, they're mine and mine alone to make!
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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06-27-2002, 01:37 AM | #13 |
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Yeah, hopefully the other states do the same. I too am waiting for the day that they take "In God We Trust" off of the coin. Never could understand how a nation promoting freedom of religion could put such things on currency anyway. Well the school thing came way too late for me anyway I guess, hate to suffer though all that eventually I ended up uses the coming in late method as well. Though still today it seems you have to endure the forced ceremony elsewhere it angers me the way people look at me when I refuse at sports events, graduations and such.
To address the wording of the main topic, just because you don't want "under god" or "in god we trust" on something doesn't mean that you are non-religious. Just that you are supportive of free thought and the right of. [ 06-27-2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Orion ] |
06-27-2002, 03:02 AM | #14 |
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA, U.S.A.
Age: 39
Posts: 2,615
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FINALLY! How would christians feel if they had to say one nation under Vishnu, Zeus etc.
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06-27-2002, 03:13 AM | #15 |
Red Dragon
Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Age: 38
Posts: 1,557
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Pardon me for asking, but what is the pledge of alleigance? Is it like pledging yourself to America or something like that? Do you have to do it?
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<br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas |
06-27-2002, 03:29 AM | #16 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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06-27-2002, 03:32 AM | #17 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 62
Posts: 3,577
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Quote:
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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06-27-2002, 06:44 AM | #18 | |
Red Dragon
Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Age: 38
Posts: 1,557
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Quote:
I believe that it is unfair to get a child to make a pledge like that. They are too young. Wait until they are teenagers before making them swear their lives away :/
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<br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas |
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06-27-2002, 08:47 AM | #19 |
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
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Scholarcs, The Pledge of Allegiance is usually recited by school children at the beginning of the school day. The class stands up and the teacher leads them in a pledge to the flag.
I gave this topic a lot of thought last night, and I have to admit that I even surprised myself with my answer. I looked at it from several different perspectives. First of all, are we REALLY "one nation, under God"? Not anymore. Non-Christian religions are becoming more numerous and more vocal. For many, many years, it was taboo to proclaim any religion that deviated greatly from Christianity. Mormons, Jews, and Catholics were acceptable..but anything past that was really "pushing your luck". That has changed dramatically within the last 25 years, so the pledge is no longer accurate. Second point - Will Christianity be adversely affected by removing the "offending reference"? Once again,the answer is NO. Christians could still add it if they wished while non-beleivers are offering nothing more than meaningless "lip-service" at best. AFA non-believer simply choosing NOT to state the pledge at all....I cannot agree with that. It looks good on paper, but if a student chooses to NOT recite the pledge, he/she will be "marking" themselves and setting themselves up for possible retaliation. Retaliation that may even receive the "implied consent" from the teacher since they may feel that the Pledge is a show of patriotism and SHOULD be recited by all children. Orion mentioned the "disapproving stares" he/she recieves at ballgames for not participating in the pre-game prayer. It would be even worse when school children (who can be quite cruel towards other anyway) are involved. Example: A little over a year ago, I saw a video of a high school chorus group doing a "recital" (or whatever you call a community event where they sing several of the songs they have practiced all year long). One of the members in the chorus was a pagan. She and her mother (head of the local pagan church) had objected strongly to Christian Hymns being included in the groups presentation. She also cited the "separation of church and state". I disagree with that interpretation, but it was a moot point. When the presentation took place, the pagan girl refused to sing the hymns. She was physically attacked by the "Christians" in the group. They pummeled her with their fists and pulled her hair. All of this was captured on video and shown on the local news. So tell me, do you REALLY think it would be safe for a 5th grader to "sit out" the Pledge of Allegiance?? Sooner or later, he has to go to the playground, and you can bet there will be some kids waiting for him there. Don't misunderstand me....as most of you know, I am a very devout Christian. But the kind of ignorance and intolerance mentioned above is simply inexcusable. Not only does it NOT reflect the love that Jesus Christ showed to everyone - and that He EXPECTS modern day Christians to do also - it also puts Christianity in a very bad light and simply adds justification to the various criticisms leveled by atheists, agnostics, et al. It gives us a very negative image that is difficult to overcome. Finally, why did Dwight D. Eisenhower feel it was necessary to add the phrase after so many years? According to one report I heard last night, he stated that he did it so that "children all across America will be calling to and acknowledging the Almighty every single morning before starting school" {paraphrased}. That IS a direct violation of the "separation of church and state". That is an example of the President trying to impose a specific religious belief on the entire nation. So I have to say that I do not oppose removing the phrase "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't completely agree with it, but I have to agree with the opposition in this case.
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[img]\"http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/cerek/cerektsrsig.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Cerek the Calmth |
06-27-2002, 09:11 AM | #20 |
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Cerek, yet again you have hit paydirt. I believe your comments sum up the legal and ethical aspects of this case quite well. As for people being tolerant of one another's choices, it has gotten considerably better, yet it is still risky to stand out in a crowd in re one's religion. The government of our nation, a polyglot of cultural and religious backgrounds, MUST remain neutral on matters of religion if it is to honestly represent all the citizens equably.
BTW, Cerek, should you choose to run for public office, you've got my vote! |
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