Thought of the day

[Ryanamur]

I to (most people should have realized that by now) believe as Zateel does, that if we don't do anything, they will keep killing us. There are still terrorists organisation in the US, Canada, UK, France, Belgium, Germany... We have to take them out before they take us out.

It's sad, it's going to be bloody, but unfortunately, that's the way it is. I'm not advocating here to bomb the **** out of supporting countries. We must assassinate terrorist on sight, without hurting the local population. Yes, it's going to be tricky because you don't know exaclty who they are until they strike. Which means that, most likely, innocents will die in the process.

Personnaly, I do not believe in bringing them to justice. Plus, in trial, they will most likely get away by claiming some sort of religious rule (expecially if they have the writings to prove it) or insanity. If we, as a free society, can let Jehovah Witnesses (I'm just making this point as sake of demonstration, I'm not targetting Jehovah Witnesses) child die when in need of a blood transfusion, I don't see why we would have a problem with granting them the right of self defense (yep, that's how screwed up our system is)

[Belecthor]

Originally posted by Link: Belecthor: Aren't you Uber-Moderator at Mithril Hall???

LOL @ uber! Yes, I'm the Global MOD there.


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Belecthor
Hedge Knight
"Crushing the skulls of morons, sycophants and other insipid evil-doers."
"Non Arte, Sed Marte"

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Belecthor: Indeed the direct perpetrators of the recent events are dead. Those that aid and support terrorism must be stopped. I really could care less whether they're keen to die for their cause or not. Whether they go to their deaths with a smile or a grimace on their face is immaterial to me, as long as I don't have to see another terrorist attack such as the ones that we've witnessed.

I tend to agree, Bel. The surviving conspiritors behind these actions should be brought to justice, which in my view might justifiably be Death, depending on the degree of their involvement.

From the standpoint of American Criminal Law, those acts constituted Murder (as well as a long list of lesser crimes). Anyone who aided in the planning, supplying, or any other aspect of that conspiricy to committ murder (it doesn't matter if their primary objective was the deaths of the civilians or not, because they acted in the knowledge that people would be killed) may be punished as if they were the principle actors. All co-conspirators in the plot are liable for the Murder itself, and can be punished accordingly.

I agree wholeheartedly that the people who plotted and aided these actions should be brought to justice.

At the same time I am concerned that our national perception will be limited to just that, and ignore the larger picture. We cannot dismiss such blind devotion to a cause (which no doubt from their point of view was the ultimate form of heroism, giving ones life for the greater good). Such dedicated warriors are not made every day. There are real world reasons for such hatred towards the US and the West.

My God the West raped the world! That period of centuries long Western expansion, colonization, and Empire only came to an end (if it really has) this past century. It really didn't end until after the shocks of World Wars I and II, when Britain and France had to let go of their empires.

In the Middle East, the West has treated the Arabs with contempt and cruelty.

The West thought nothing of displacing one tribe, the Palestinians, from their ancient homelands to create out of thin air the new nation of Israel. Don't come back with that stuff about it having been the ancient homeland of the Jews 2000 years before -- unless you are volunteering to do the same thing for the American Indians. Let's give the Indians (or rather their descendants, some few generations removed, as opposed to the 2,000 year removal of the Israelis) a similar sovereign nation state within the borders of the US, and supply it with advanced weaponry and economic aid. Why not? It is the principle the West acted on in creating Israel.

Of course, to make the parallel more accurate, some other country would have to do that to the US, against its will. Do you think the people of the US would hold a grudge if a coalition of the rest of the world set up such a nation state in a place of its choosing in the US, and kept it well supplied with weaponry?

Well, what the West did to the Palestianians and the Arabs in general was worse -- at least the US would have a fighting chance to resist in the above scenario, while the Arabs had none against the combined might of the West.

The West stole their land in the name of Empire. Britain once controlled much of the region. Other nations have played a hand, France, Russia, Germany, and the US (which was late in arriving on the scene but ultimately achieved the dominant position).

The primary interest in the region for the West if of course for its oil. Any fool familiar with the region at all knows that is why George Bush Sr went into Kuwait. The Arabs aren't blind to that.

What does our conduct in the Gulf War show except that we will cheerfully (and by this I mean the waves of patriotic americans back home cheering our boys onto victory) slaughter Arabs by the hundreds of thousands, and wreck an entire country, to protect the oil for ourselves?

So, all this is a longwinded way of saying:

Yes, bring the perpetrators (the surviving conspirators) to justice, but also learn from this as well. Such hatred does not arise out of a vaccuum. We are not blameless in creating it. To the extent that we can, we should address legitimate Arab grievances. One such might be to seriously rethink our approach to the Israel problem.

[Lemernis]

There is no great mystery about why Islamic fundamentalists hate the U.S. We represent everything antithetical to their views and their way of life. Human rights. Civil liberites. Personal freedoms. The freedom to practice the religion of one's choice. Technology and the scientific worldview. And so on. We are not "oppressing" them.

[J.J.]

Originally posted by Lemernis: There is no great mystery about why Islamic fundamentalists hate the U.S. We represent everything antithetical to their views and their way of life. Human rights. Civil liberites. Personal freedoms. The freedom to practice the religion of one's choice. Technology and the scientific worldview. And so on. We are not "oppressing" them.

Exactly. By extending Dio's reasoning, does that mean that the queen of england should still rule America? Would that make the indians her subjects? England claimed the entire continent, and did not care that indigenous peoples (the indians) already lived there. The geo-political world at the end of WWII created the state of isreal out of guilt for letting hitler eradicate 6 million jews while the the rest of the world turned a blind and disbelieving eye. Is america at fault for the existence of isreal? or those who said, oh, we can't do anything, don't believe there is anything to be done. Are you a chamberlain, or a churchill? ask yourself that.


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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by J.J.: Exactly. By extending Dio's reasoning, does that mean that the queen of england should still rule America? Would that make the indians her subjects? England claimed the entire continent, and did not care that indigenous peoples (the indians) already lived there. The geo-political world at the end of WWII created the state of isreal out of guilt for letting hitler eradicate 6 million jews while the the rest of the world turned a blind and disbelieving eye. Is america at fault for the existence of isreal? or those who said, oh, we can't do anything, don't believe there is anything to be done. Are you a chamberlain, or a churchill? ask yourself that.

I don't follow you, JJ. How is that "extending Dio's reasoning?"

Yes, America is to some extent to blame for the creation of Israel, perhaps as much as any country in the world. The US emerged from World War II as the predominant Western power in the world, and certainly played a major role in its creation and survival.

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is unacceptable by any decent standard of civil liberty and human rights, and the US continues to support Israel. Why then should you be surprised at Arab bitterness towards the US for this?

As for whether I am a Chamberlain or a Churchill, it would help if I understood the point of your question, which I'm afraid I do not. Yes, I know who Chamberlain and Churchill were, I just don't see in what sense you are asking the question. Please explain.

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-19-2001).]

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Lemernis: There is no great mystery about why Islamic fundamentalists hate the U.S. We represent everything antithetical to their views and their way of life. Human rights. Civil liberites. Personal freedoms. The freedom to practice the religion of one's choice. Technology and the scientific worldview. And so on. We are not "oppressing" them.

Lem, I disagree that it is that simple.

Even if you removed the religious element from the picture entirely, the Arabs would have plenty of grounds for grievances against the West.

True Diogenes. This isn't simply a religious matter.

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[img]http://communities.msn.co.uk/_Secure/0MwAvQiIS68yaeD9h5Pse*xXpwGZdk5rCu!0NDYr4Y2SZK0RdC ylCjR7MDyOC5ObvJjS61vcf0X7eYwVxc22kBQ/BlackLich.gif[/img]

Double Standards are everywhere, within the mid-east issues, and beyond.
Sue for peace, while making war
Condemn terror, while wreaking it
Follow Christ's teachings of forgivness, and call for retaliation
Follow the Teachings of the Koran concerning living peacfully, and go out and kill

And on and on...

The best we can do as individuals, is weed out our own hypocrisy.

[Lemernis]

I certainly wouldn't want to oversimplify the complexities of the middle east. But near as I can tell the folks that hate us over there look for anything to hang their hat on with respect to hating the U.S. I'm not sure if anything the U.S. has done justifies the level of pure hatred we have seen. I think we are hated not for what we actually are, or do, but what we represent in their psychology. I am positive of that actually.

Um, this may seem like a somewhat off the wall observation but I truly hope that the west now seriously starts getting the world economy switched over to some new form of energy like cold fusion so that we can end the political influence that such nations hold over the entire western world. (These terrorists are rich from oil, btw!)