Europes population falling

[Vaskez]

If the trends continue, white people will die out! Scary! I mean look at the statistics: population explosions in Africa and Asia (esp. India). Population decline in Europe and not really growing in North America. In a thousand years or so who knows...

Anyway as Johnny said: I don't think Europe will ever be a single nation: look at the huge cultural difference just between UK and France. They are completely different people: they could never be one nation. Even switzerland (yeah I know they speak french and italian too), Austria and Germany could never be the same nation despite speaking the same language: they are too proud of their independance. There are too many advantages to independance as well. We don't wanna erase all that cultural variety. Single currency MAY work, as yet I am undecided on that issue and open borders are all good, but I don't think it should go much further than that.

Population is not the only thing that counts, so just because China and India have more people it doesn't mean they should get more votes in UN business. It's who controls the economy etc. that counts. Making a population-weighted influence scheme would be unfair on the less populous nations who would never get anything they wanted as they would be outvoted. I think one vote per government is fair.

[ 06-03-2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Vaskez ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by johnny: About Europe being one nation, one people, etc..., you can forget about that. That will NEVER happen. I think the EU would fall apart first. One vote for Europe is not negotiable.

Hmmm.... that sounds familiar.
"The American way of life is not negotiable." - G. Bush
"There can be no compromise." - A. Hitler

Hmmmmmmm.....

I'm fine with one vote for each Euro-nation. Just so long as Illinois, KY, MO, VT, CA, DE, etc all get their one vote. Especially since on an individual basis our states are usually bigger and/or more populated that your typical EU nation.

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I'm fine with one vote for each Euro-nation. Just so long as Illinois, KY, MO, VT, CA, DE, etc all get their one vote. Especially since on an individual basis our states are usually bigger and/or more populated that your typical EU nation.

They are also just as culturaly diverse. Anyone disagreeing with this try comparing VT, NJ, MA, OH, TX, GA, and CA!

Night Stalker...you could even argue they have seperate languages...

Yunto from the south and ayup from Maine [img]smile.gif[/img]
Ya'll and youins, wash and warsh,
and the examples go on and on [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Vaskez]

LOL you gotta be kidding, comparing American states to EU nations. Maybe in population and land area they are like countries but you can't say they are as culturally diverse! For a start they all speak the same language, can't really say that for Europe. However different CA and NY are, try comparing Hungary (will be EU in less than a year) and France for example.... NOT EXACTLY the same I'd say. Or how about Bulgaria and Spain...yes veeeery similar.

[Timber Loftis]

Well, here's a recurring discussion. Anyone care to go find the old link from 8 mos. ago or so? I'm ass-kickingly busy today, so don't look at me to do it. [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

Here's a thought I didn't have then, though. It's a fairness thing. The EU shares political ideology more than it doesn't share it. The US can't get a fair shake at the UN with its 1 vote for 250 Million people staring down the barrel of all the EU votes. Why do you think the US is forced to throw its political weight around so much, play EU nations off of each other, and walk away from the UN table? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] It's easy to answer this by saying "because the US is a bully" when you guys have all those votes tipping the scales of fairness your way.

[Mouse]

The whole point of the ECSC, the EEC and the EC and the EU is that they have evolved by the gradual secession of some aspects of national sovereignty to their institutions. Sovereignty is like virginity, once you give it away, it's virtually impossible to get it back, and even if you say you still have it, people know what you've done

Personally speaking, I don't fear closer European integration. Anything that breaks down the national barriers and prejudices that lead (to a large extent) to two World Wars should be supported.

I also believe that the European Court (which is an organ of the EU) and the European Court of Human Rights (which is not) are useful in enforcing minimum agreed standards of behaviour against national governments. In a country where there is no written constitution, it is a powerful deterrant against the exercise of unreasonable powers by the Executive.

Finally, it is often forgotten that the supreme legislative body in the EU is still the Council of Ministers and that consists of elected representatives of member governments. The European Parliament (a directly elected body) still only has limited autonomous powers.

As for the often reviled Commission and it's President, unless they are acting under treaty powers in strictly proscribed areas, all they do is carry out the Parliament's and the Council of Minister's instructions. Here in the UK, we love to rail against the "Brussels Bureaucrats" when in effect, we should be directing our criticism against the elected representatives who gave them the briefs and authority to come up with some of their more unpalatable plans.

Just so you know, all the above is dredged from a year of study of European Law and Institutions that I undertook as part of a degree about 8 years ago, so I apologise for any factual innacuracies and misremembered notions. I am, after all, a confirmed Eurotwit

Originally posted by Vaskez: LOL you gotta be kidding, comparing American states to EU nations. Maybe in population and land area they are like countries but you can't say they are as culturally diverse! For a start they all speak the same language, can't really say that for Europe. However different CA and NY are, try comparing Hungary (will be EU in less than a year) and France for example.... NOT EXACTLY the same I'd say. Or how about Bulgaria and Spain...yes veeeery similar.

Vasky, come visit the states...I'll take you places where you won't know what language they speak...culturally diverse? walk down my street...we have people from all different nationalities living here....we are a nation of immigrants (ask the native americans) Ill match the differences of Bulgaria and Spain vs those of Rodeo Drive in California vs the residents of the Apalachian mountains [img]smile.gif[/img]

[pritchke]

I have to agree with Magik.

Visit Texas, Bush does not even have an accent when compared with other people from Southern stats.

I believe there is even a state were many people speak French (sort of).

In Florida there are a group of old people called snowbirds who say "Eh!" after every sentence.

Then there are places like Maine along the Eastern shore were everyone from a different town speaks a different language (assuming fishing ports are like Nova Scotia, or Newfoundland).

In Alaska they probably have Inuit, and in Hawaii they definitely have their own culture and language. Not to mention the various aboriginal tribes scattered throughout NA. After leaving Kansas you can say "We aren't in Kansas any more."

[Vaskez]

Blah, blah, I don't even know why I bother taking part in serious discussions. It always ends with:

a) me getting ignored
b) everyone disagreeing

Then again I suppose that is the nature of debate so I shouldn't complain.

I know USA is very diverse culturally, but the fact remains that it IS one country and Europe is not. In the USA can you geographically divide the different cultural groups? I don't think so, because they all lived mixed up together. So are you proposing that the USA gets many votes, one for every ethnic minority? I.e an English immigrants' vote, an Irish immigrants' vote, an American Indian vote, a Mexican immigrants' vote etc.? I guess what I was trying to say is that I thought American was pretty mixed culturally everywhere so you can't really define culturally different geographic regions to give individual votes to whereas in Europe you can. Then again I don't know taht much about America so maybe I'm wrong.