Overuse(Über-use?) of "uber"!?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Spelca: quote: Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: I couldn't help noticing that it seems to have become incredibly fashionable as of late to the use the German word "über" in English. Does anybody know when, how and why that fashion started? I mean what is suddenly wrong with the English word "over"? Oh, while I am at it: it is definitely über and not uber. There are three special variations of the vowels a, o and u in German, called "Umlaute" (ä,ö,ü), which are pronounced quite differently from the vowels themselves, so, yes, the difference matters. I fully realize that there are no keys for the Umlaute on a English keyboard and that you probably don't know the short cut codes for them, but there is an established way around that obstacle. The three Umlaute can be written as follows: ä=ae, ö=oe and ü=ue. So, please, if you cannot resist the urge to spice up your English with a little foreign and exotic flavour, have the respect to make it: ueber. Thank you! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't know where all of this happened. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
But I don't see anything wrong with people writing uber or pronouncing it in an English (or any other language) way. People often take foreign words and then adjust them to the rules of their own language. As far as I know there is no "ü" ("ue") sound in English, and some people probably can't even pronounce it properly. I'm an example of one of those. [img]tongue.gif[/img] So you shouldn't be too upset because of that. Don't you, in Germany, use any English words when you speak with your friends? Like some bad words for example (since those seem to be really popular in other countries [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Well I doubt you pronounce it in a really English (or American) way when you do. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I don't know about the Deutsche but the Irish say "Fohk".

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Originally posted by Spelca: I don't know where all of this happened. [img]tongue.gif[/img] But I don't see anything wrong with people writing uber or pronouncing it in an English (or any other language) way. People often take foreign words and then adjust them to the rules of their own language. As far as I know there is no "ü" ("ue") sound in English, and some people probably can't even pronounce it properly. I'm an example of one of those. [img]tongue.gif[/img] So you shouldn't be too upset because of that. Don't you, in Germany, use any English words when you speak with your friends? Like some bad words for example (since those seem to be really popular in other countries [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Well I doubt you pronounce it in a really English (or American) way when you do. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I was not really upset about the use of über/uber in English, rather interested in how and why it is used. So, thank you - and everybody else - very much for your input on that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

On a more general level:I am fully aware that words of foreign origins that have been adopted into a language tend to quickly take on a life of their own with regard to their meaning/usage and eventually also with regard to their pronunciation and spelling. And that is of course a process that is constantly happening with many foreign words in most modern languages and one that has been happening for centuries. For that reason you are absolutely right, there are constantly lots of English words, in particular, that are being "imported" into German. But nowadays usually the original spelling and pronunciation is being preserved. And I prefer it that way. Why? Because foreign words in a language can serve as bridge to their original language, give you an idea how it sounds and even some basic notion how it works. But they can, of course, only serve that function as long as their foreign origin remains recognizable.

I'll give you a practical example: the French expression for wallet "portemonnaie" has been in use in German for ages, but its original French spelling and pronunciation have been preserved, so that every German first grader who learns to spell it at the same time also learns the French words "la monnaie" (money) and "porter" (to carry). But much more significant in my opinion, he/she gets an idea that there is world outside German and Germany that sounds, looks and smells very different! And that is a lesson that one cannot learn early enough.Very unfortunately, there was an orthography reform in Germany a couple of years ago as part of which the spelling of many foreign words of longstanding use was "Germanized". Needless to say, I am/was fervently opposed to that part of the reform.

[Spelca]

To Yorick: Do you mean in Irish or Irish English? If it's Irish English then it's still some kind of a dialect so it's correct. [img]smile.gif[/img] The German teenagers, when they speak to their friends, probably say it differently than any other native speakers of English. Probably. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

To Ramon de Ramon Y Ramon: Yes, but you have to keep in mind that the English speaking people, for example, don't have the letter "ü" in their alphabeth and they don't even have that sound in their pronunciation. [img]smile.gif[/img] So naturally they adjust the word to their language. Imagine how it would be if you got, for example, a Slovene word with some new letters, and then you'd all of a sudden have to learn the new letter and the new sound. It's not that easy for people to learn new sounds, believe me. I've tried to teach Americans to say the Slovene "r", and tried to teach some Spanish people how to say "snail" in Slovene - but all that came out was spit. [img]smile.gif[/img] I know I have difficulties with the German ü; it takes a lot of effort to pronounce it properly, so I usually just say "u" with a bit of the "ü" sound in it... [img]tongue.gif[/img] So it's really difficult for average people to think of every new word, and where it comes from, and all the new sounds and letters, etc. It's just easier to anglicise it, or adapt it to whatever language you speak.

Though you're right, words do go into language and some do keep their form. But which words do is really nobody's business but the speakers' of that language. [img]smile.gif[/img] They decide (or, even better, the language itself decides) what form is more useful, and what form fits its purpose more. You can try to put rules on language, but sooner or later they'll be broken if the language is less effective because of those rules.

PS: I just thought it would be fun to mention - my name (Spela) sounds really different that the English language, so when I'm in a country, or in a company where everybody speaks English, I have a really difficult time switching from one language to the other. So if I'm speaking English and somebody new comes along and asks what my name is, I have to think a bit before I say my name because its sound is so much different that English... Switching from one language, and from one kinds of sounds to the others is difficult. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Originally posted by Yorick: ... All kids are doing by taking über and removing the umlaut is going straight to an earlier source. However the word "uber" is now by definition an English (colloquial) word, as it's spelled and pronounced differently than "über" as you so kindly pointed out. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Lol, Yorick, if I was a prone to go on crusades like that I'd have picked another Spanish name as my forum name here: Don Quixote.

Originally posted by Yorick: ... That said, I'll personally endeavor to take your feelings into account though Ramon and write über when I remember to. I'd think it would be a sign of consideration for other posters to do the same, but offense shouldn't be read into neglect of such consideration... right? [img]smile.gif[/img] Adieu.

That is very considerate of you, but don't worry, I was not about to petition Ziroc to include a new TOS clause that would threaten anyone with an immediate and permanent deletion of their account if they were to misspell any word of German origin. (Well, prior to your post, I was of course strongly considering doing just that. )

[Faceman]

As for pronounciation again

It IS alike the English "deuce"

from Merrian-Webster online

Main Entry: deuce
Pronunciation: 'düs also 'dyüs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French deus two, from Latin duos, accusative masculine of duo two -- more at TWO
Date: 15th century
1 a (1) : the face of a die that bears two spots (2) : a playing card bearing an index number two b : a throw of the dice yielding two points
2 : a tie in tennis after each side has scored 40 requiring two consecutive points by one side to win
3 [obsolete English deuce bad luck] a : DEVIL, DICKENS -- used chiefly as a mild oath b : something notable of its kind

check out the audio pronounciation on their site!

[LennonCook]

The following are codes which can be typed directly into a post, and will display the right characters (note that they ARE case sensitive). These work better than the alt-codes, which can display break bars on some systems.

ä = ä
Ä = Ä
ë = ë
Ë = Ë
ü = ü
Ü = Ü

Anyone want any other characters ?? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Sorry, Faceman, but I beg to keep differing: your earlier post had me doubting if the pronunciation of "deuce" I remembered, mostly from watching tennis matches , was correct, so that I turned to Babylon which also has got an audio feature. It reaffirmed that the pronunciation I had remembered was the correct one.

After you posted again, I started to contemplate that there might be two substantially different versions of the pronunciation of "deuce" (similar to "either" maybe), but what I heard when I checked out the link to the Merrian- Webster's site you had provided was identical to what I had heard at Babylon, which again, sorry, to my ears at least, does sound like "dooze", hence does not contain a sound similar to the German "ü". Maybe I need a hearing aid. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-30-2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Ramon de Ramon y Ramon ]

[Donut]

I pronounce 'deuce' as 'juice'

How lucky we are that here on IW, English is the lingua franca!! (to koine a phrase)

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Originally posted by Donut: I pronounce 'deuce' as 'juice'

So do I. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Faceman]

well then it's not at all an "ü".

The m-w audio doesn't quite sound like an "ü" but gets close at least for me (maybe I need hearing aid )

All I can say that it is somewhat similar to the pronounciation of "Y" (called Ypsilon in German, pronounced üpsilon )
befor consonants in most languages.
NOT the "Y" as in English "young" or "Yemen" which would be the German "J" ("jung" und "Jemen") but as in Ytterbium, Yggdrasil (someone help me with some easier words [img]graemlins/beheaded.gif[/img] )