The Goals of Communism

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: The thing is that while the doctrine was often tried in those countrys it was very rarely tried in either the way or circumstances that its fairly obvious Communism needs. I don't mean to be ratty, it just sometimes feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall saying that to person after person... And theres always someone left to jump up and say: "But what about Russia?!?", which after a while precipitates me wandering off in a sulk muttering stuff about know it all Americans... [img]tongue.gif[/img] As for the human nature point I understand this, but until someone points out to me exactly what they think human nature is then I won't agree. And, before someone starts to do just that, I should point out that you can't infer anything about human nature by looking at historical examples. That is human nature when in special circumstances, under Communism the circumstances will be different and thus people will act differently from how they do now. If you can prove to me that the desire for comparative wealth is intrinsic to humanity, not just intrinsic to society, then I'll take my hat off to you, because I think thats impossible. Human nature is a term widely used, but hard to pin down. And as for the coming of Christ, I don't know when he will come but I'd quite like to make the best out of things until then!

Whew, thank you for posting all of this Barry. You saved me having to do it [img]smile.gif[/img]

And Attalus, just for the record, human societies do not advance anthropologically speaking, they merely change. The modern habit is to assume that industrialized consumerism is somehow a higher way of life than any other, which is simply not the case. It is different to others, yes. It makes life easier for some people, certainly. But it is not higher, or better. Upon leaving consumerist society and returning again one may see just how meaningless the endless material gratification is, and just how little true freedom exists within a society that worships convenience over anything else.

Communism works perfectly with 'human nature'. It just depends on what sort of natural human one's society produces. Competition, greed, wealth accumulation, these are all ancient Greek things, endorsed by the Romans and later distributed worldwide by the Spanish and British. They are not universal human nature. They are social conditions, created by a certain society, to fuel a certain society. They can be done away with. Communism, the desire to band together as a self-effectuating pack entity, that is human nature. And it shall be done, not in the next hundred years, not in the next thousand. Society follows trends spanning hundreds of thousands of years. There are no quick fixes. But the change shall come. We shall keep the faith and re-educate humanity, just as it was re-educated ten thousand years ago when the first farms were established. It is inevitable.

[Sir Krustin]

Just thought I'd mention, since everybody else seems to have missed it, is that MagiKs' post is referring to the communist partys' goals, not the goals of communism itself.

I agree with TL and Cloudy, et. al. - true communism hasn't happened, nor will it likely ever happen.

The reasons are simple, in order to insure an even distribution of resources (the explicit goal of communism) you need a strong central government. This strong central authority inevitably results in a cultural inequity like that in Soviet Russia - the elite ruling class and everybody else. This, coupled with the lack of incentive for the workers ("do as I say, and you will get a better lifestyle") results in a horribly innefficient economy. It really is like TL said - be capitalist, or be trampled by every other capitalist.

Barry, I suspect you and I might get along better than you think, despite my being a near-rabid libertarian. Strip away the "grenade" labels, and basically what you're saying is you don't want ruling class - that makes you an anarchist, not a communist. And, btw, any true anarchist realizes that anarchy will never truly result in cultural equality, it just means that the strong will dominate the weak, and the lazy won't get a share of the "profits".

I, however, don't care if you want to be a communist or a capitalist - just so long as you keep your mitts off my life (and my property) - true communism isn't about coercing people to live with you, it's a voluntary lifestyle.

What I want is a minimalist government. No socialist health care, no handouts, just national defence, a police force, and a courts system; and NO taxation, though that's admittedly unrealistic. That's as close to anarchy anybody should want to get. (Until Eden gets germinated, anyways)

edit>for spelling

[ 02-06-2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Sir Krustin ]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Well, Attalus, I agree with the laziness/selfishness attributes you mention. It only takes one lazyass to ruin the collective. But, not all advanced forms of societies give up the communal life. Dolphins, for instance. When was the last time you met a Dolphin with material possessions, a need for shelter, have medical or dental care, or do any of the things that make humans what we are? It is rather convenient when you don't need clothing to protect you fromt he elements, or a home to sleep in or have to pay taxes.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Communism works perfectly with 'human nature'. It just depends on what sort of natural human one's society produces. Competition, greed, wealth accumulation, these are all ancient Greek things, endorsed by the Romans and later distributed worldwide by the Spanish and British. They are not universal human nature. They are social conditions, created by a certain society, to fuel a certain society. They can be done away with. Communism, the desire to band together as a self-effectuating pack entity, that is human nature. And it shall be done, not in the next hundred years, not in the next thousand. Society follows trends spanning hundreds of thousands of years. There are no quick fixes. But the change shall come. We shall keep the faith and re-educate humanity, just as it was re-educated ten thousand years ago when the first farms were established. It is inevitable.

Don't suppose you have even a single example of this, long term and large scale? You and BTS both keep mentioning that you have been frustrated in your efforts to explain "True" communism to people.....ever think that it is the very nature of human beings that is frustrating you? It is quite apparent that you have nobel ideals, but you just refuse to accept people for what they actually are.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: It is rather convenient when you don't need clothing to protect you fromt he elements, or a home to sleep in or have to pay taxes.

You mean kinda like humans did for the vast majority of their existance? Think outside of the here-and-now Magik buddy. The civilized lifestyle is still in it's infancy in terms of the history of the species homo sapiens sapiens. 10,000 years out of an estimated 200,000+? That's nothing. It's an experiment, a fleeting trend. Nothing more. In the end it's self-destructive consumption habits will be it's undoing. Give it one or two thousand years and the pillars that hold it up will have completely crumbled away.

[ 02-06-2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: Don't suppose you have even a single example of this, long term and large scale? You and BTS both keep mentioning that you have been frustrated in your efforts to explain "True" communism to people.....ever think that it is the very nature of human beings that is frustrating you? It is quite apparent that you have nobel ideals, but you just refuse to accept people for what they actually are.

- Practically every nomadic society in human existance, the traditional heritage of which outspans the entire history of civilization at least tenfold.
- The Mycenaen Greeks.
- The Bronze-Age Minoans.
to name but a few.

Accepting people for what they are does not frustrate me, it is what keeps me going. Accepting what modern society makes them is what I find so difficult. The psychology of the modern industrialized city is not natural, it relegates the goals of the communal group to the accumulation of non-essential goods. It triggers and encourages ambition within the human to 'climb' an abstract, ordered social 'ladder' in an attempt to attain a 'better' life. It is modern society that encourages the futile chasing of imaginary dreams. In the end it encapsulates greed and ambition as virtue, and worships anti-social characteristics in an attempt to fuel it's theoretical 'economies'. Yet it is only one particular way of human social life, nothing more, nothing less. It is currently the dominant form of human social interaction on the planet. But its voracious consumption of resources is non-sustainable, and it shall collapse under it's own weight within a few short millenia (ie: the historical blink of an eye).
People are what they have been taught and conditioned to be. To be shown no alternative, to be instructed to 'be capitalist or be trampled by other capitalists', that is what keeps people clinging to the boundaries of modern civilization.

[ 02-06-2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Practically every nomadic society in human existance, the traditional heritage of which outspans the entire history of civilization at least tenfold. - The Mycenaen Greeks. - The Bronze-Age Minoans. to name but a few. Excuse me, but every nomadic tribe I have ever read about or seen has had a strict caste structure and are NOT what you describe as true communes. They are or have been strict patriarchal or matriarchal societies where a ruler tells everyone what their task is, and not everyone is equal. As for your two examples, allow me to take a day or so to do a little reading and Ill verify your accuracy. But really I do not believe they were communes. .

[ 02-06-2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Ok, Heirophant, from a short but furious search of the internet on texts relating to the Mycenaen Greeks and Bronze Age Minoans, it appears that you are in serious error with your claims that they were Communistic in nature. The experts I read say the much the same as the following text...Note the red text. I have never heard of kingdoms being confused with communes.

Ancient Greece
By the standards of the times Bronze Age (3000-1000B.C.) Ancient Greece was comparatively sophisticated but was also strongly influenced by the yet more accomplished Minoan civilization based on Crete that strongly flourished from 2000 -1450 B.C.
Minoan Crete maintained an extensive network of trading links that brought influences drawn from Egypt and Mesopotamia to Crete. The Minoans exported pottery, grains, wines, and oils, and tended to import luxury materials such as precious metals, jewels, and ivory. Minoan culture gave rise to several great cities that featured stone buildings and provision for a water supply and drainage. The city adjacent to the great Palace of Knossos was home, at its peak, to almost one hundred thousand people. Knossos was thus one of the first major cities in human history!!!

On the Greek mainland meanwhile Mycenaen authority was exercised through a number of localised kingdoms. These kingdoms may have adopted written record keeping based on Minoan examples.

In or around 1450 B.C. one of the most cataclysmic volcanic eruptions in recorded history, that may have involved tidal waves, earth quakes, and crop failures, severely disrupted Minoan civilisation and the Mycenaens were able to bring Minoan Crete under their sway and to displace the Minoans in exercising a widespread power and influence.

For reasons that are not fully clear today most Mycenaen cities tended to very much fortify their perimeters from around 1250 B.C. This period is however associated with the Trojan wars that are the subject of Homer's Iliad.

***SNIP an extensive writing on the non-comunistic Mycenaen Greeks and Minoans. ***

[The Hierophant]

You are absolutely right Magik.
I became so irrationally involved in this discussion that I was more concerned with trying to 'win' the argument than with conveying the truth. I knew full well that neither The Mycenaens nor the Minoans, nor nomadism in any form had absolutely nothing to do with communist lifestyle. I hoped that you would lack sufficient information on the subject to counter my claims (I'm a Classical Studies major, so I've studied the subject reasonably extensively, and I recalled from a different thread that ancient Greece was 'not your cup of tea'). Regardless, you called my bluff and I must merely take and accept the subsequent loss of face. I lied, and I feel ashamed.

Ah, it's good to come clean.

To be completely honest I've never believed in the fundamentals of 'communism' myself either. I just wanted to try and 'beat' you. It would appear that my debating skills are currently in need of some spit and polish... but someday..... some day...


[ 02-07-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: You are absolutely right Magik. I became so irrationally involved in this discussion that I was more concerned with trying to 'win' the argument than with conveying the truth. I knew full well that neither The Mycenaens nor the Minoans, nor nomadism in any form had absolutely nothing to do with communist lifestyle. I hoped that you would lack sufficient information on the subject to counter my claims (I'm a Classical Studies major, so I've studied the subject reasonably extensively, and I recalled from a different thread that ancient Greece was 'not your cup of tea'). Regardless, you called my bluff and I must merely take and accept the subsequent loss of face. I lied, and I feel ashamed. Ah, it's good to come clean. To be completely honest I've never believed in the fundamentals of 'communism' myself either. I just wanted to try and 'beat' you. It would appear that my debating skills are currently in need of some spit and polish... but someday..... some day...

While I suspected as much and cannot condone just making things up, I do applaude your "coming clean". Usually I am pretty lazy but this time I was pretty sure the greeks had not been a communistic culture but only from what I read of greek myths...and not actual history.

Hey! at the very least you forced me to learn alittle bit about greek history