The "China" Crises

[Grunt Master]

Originally posted by 250: international convention says those water are for PEACEFUL USE only. USA's spyplane was obviously obtaining informations for China's unfriendly nearby countries. further more, the frequency of spy missions had been increasing. the VERY regular mission was threating chinese people's right, and doing chinese people harm. how could you do that? a country claimed to be the most fair, most respectful to people's right, people's liberty, had INTENTIONALY ignore its own code and doing other people harm? so shouldn't Chinese defend themselves? I say yes. not only they should, they deserve an apology as well. [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-10-2001).]

International Convention does NOT say that those waters are for peaceful use only. International waters and air space are routinely used in a non-peaceful way. Any armed aircraft or ship is by definition not engaged in a peaceful activity.

Furthermore, states use certain designations to promote the safe operation of military aircraft in international air space:
Alert Area - Airspace which may contain a high volume of pilot training activities.
Controlled Firing Area - Airspace wherein activities are conducted under conditions so controlled so as to eliminate hazards to non participating aircraft.
Military Operations Area (MOA) - Airspace established to separate/segregate certain military activities from IFR traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where these activities are conducted.
Prohibited Area - Designated airspace within which the flight of aircraft is prohibited.
Restricted Area - Airspace within which the flight of aircraft, while not wholly prohibited, is subject to restriction. Most restricted areas are designated joint use and IFR/VFR operations in the area may be authorized by the controlling ATC facility when it is not being utilized by the using agency.
Warning Area - Airspace which may contain hazards to non participating aircraft in international airspace. (http://www.eos.tuwien.ac.at/Oeko/RSchild/Rules/id28.htm)

I am actually not arguing your point in the second paragraph I quoted, nor am I arguing with your plea/cry/call for peace. Just as the US has the right to fly observation flights near chinese waters, China has the right to observe the observer. A collision ocurred and someone was at fault. China wants to convince the US and the world that it was the US's fault--something that will be quite difficult, seeing as how the chinese are not allowing the US to meet with its crew in any substantial way. "Hey, your guy made a mistake and before we'll let you find out if it was your fault, we want you to admit guilt." Give me a break.

[Moridin]

Uh Oh a religious topic! Will try to contian myself....nooooo....I am being pulled in.....it can't happen......HELP!

I too am an atheist, but perhaps a different 'definition' than Moiraine .

Yorick--
You mention all of the good that christianity has done for people. I do not disagree with you, but I have to say that christianity has also done quite a bit of harm to people as well! How many 'heretics' died in the names of christianity? Why are gays/lesbians hated so much? Why are there no women clergy? This may be more of a rant against organized religion, but the whole idea to me is a bit proposterous! Personally I like to rely on my own beliefs and power to change my life and those around me, rather than the teachings of a man that lived 2000 years ago. I don't intend to offend and am not bashing christianity or those who follow it, just giving my opinion

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It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant,
than open it and remove all doubt!

[250]

sigh, must I say those all again?

ohhhhh, i see, so what were they doing out there? a 24 family members having a holiday trip out there? so freaking close to South China Sea, taking pictures? I see, hmm, not spy, not spy, not really.

Convention: Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or
civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery
of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the
enemy.

hmmm, lets see, carry out mission OPENLY? ohhh well, pretty open are you? have you informed Chinese government that you will fly your planes around its border every so often? well, no

the truth was, the dudes were on a mission of obtain information, and they did it secretly. unfortunate for them, they were discovered. but that doesn't mean you weren't spying. a discovered spy is still a spy, that doesnt make him a "soldier who" all of a sudden "penatrated hostile zone"

let me make this clear, it was AMERICAN plane made the turn, not chinese pilot.



look, man, the left wing, left motor, and plane head, in this order, the plane crashes. think about it, from this kinda direction, it left only two possible answers. one is chinese pilot deliberately drove into your plane from left wing. doing so would result the pilot a certain death, because he is in front and would should crash himself when his plane hits Spyplane from BELOW.

the second option is american plane made a sudden, big turn towards chinese plane, the chinese pilot barely managed to avoid, but not miss the manuver, because his own wing crashed into the spyplane.

about "escout from a safe distance" what the hell? what is a safe distance? before anything happens, any distance is safe. and do you mean, chinese should endure the constant taunts from american military, and still remain a "respectful" and "safe" distance??? how dare you spit down other people's right?? and by what right do you have to justify the constant spying missions on near china sea???

regardless you were not in china sea (it is not determined yet) your motivation was harmful to chinese people and chinese rights.

the convention: Preamble:
Recognizing the desirability of establishing through this Convention, with due regard for the sovereignty of all States, a legal order for the seas and oceans which will facilitate international communication, and will promote the peaceful uses of the seas and oceans, the equitable and efficient utilization of their resources, the conservation of their living resources, and the study, protection and preservation of the marine environment

look at the word: "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE"
US plane was on military mission, which was a secret remained unknown. let not discuss if THIS mission was hostile, but US had increasingly sending planes spying China, if not spy, THEN WHAT WERE THEY DOING???

if spy, then it is NOT PEACEFUL AT ALL! US broke the law, and face it!

final remark, this is an american scholar wrote to chinese people:

dont lie to yourself, they were spying! what else were they doing? it is like saying "a thug break into your house, beat your family, and accuse you for not properly lock the door"

does that make sense? GIVE ME A BREAK!

one last remark


China is right

The U.S. government has flipped its lid on this China spy plane mess. So have many commentators who are refusing to come to terms with some very obvious facts. Once you blow away the fog, you can see that if anyone should be protesting right now, it is American citizens against their own government.

No. 1: The collision between the U.S. spy plane and the Chinese jet occurred along China's border. Think about that and you can understand why China is so unhappy.

Now, the U.S. claims it was in "international airspace," but backs up this claim with a rule arrived at unilaterally by the U.S. government and accepted by no one else. The U.S. makes up rules to justify its behavior, rules that the U.S. does not accept if applied against U.S. territory.

The space where the collision occurred is normally used to facilitate commerce, not hostile military activities. But in U.S. foreign policy, there is a presumption that the whole world is a playground for the U.S. government to do what it wants.

No. 2: The U.S. plane was a spy plane. Say it three times: It was a spy plane. It was not a commercial airliner. Hence it is preposterous for the U.S. to say that a spy plane landing in China territory is somehow sovereign property. The international law on this subject applies to civil aviation.

The U.S. spy plane was seeking to intercept communications and rip off information for U.S. military advantage, probably at the behest of China's unfriendly neighbors. This makes it an aggressor against China, just as the U.S. considers any attempt to spy on us to be aggression and evidence of hostility.

No. 3: The U.S. spy plane landed at a Chinese military airport. The U.S. crew never asked permission to do so. Imagine what the U.S. would do if a Chinese spy plane were zipping around outside Virginia, became entangled with U.S. jets, and then landed at a U.S. base. The U.S. would not say, "Sorry, guys, about interrupting your spy mission. Thanks for visiting our military base and come back soon."

No. 4: The Chinese pilot is dead. The U.S. crew is not. Also still dead are the three Chinese journalists who died when the U.S. bombed the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia in 1999. No U.S. soldiers died in that incident either. The carnage is beginning to mount, and, no surprise, that at some point the Chinese are going to decide they won't take it anymore. How long can one country be subjected to murderous attacks from the U.S. before it begins to complain? But if they do complain, this is decried in the U.S. as "nationalism."

No. 5: There is no mystery about how the U.S. treats such cases. In 1976, a Soviet MIG carrying a defector landed in Japan. The Soviets demanded the plane back. The U.S. complied after taking the entire thing apart. It was sent back to Moscow in packing crates.

On another occasion in the 1970s, the U.S. secretly tried to raise a Soviet submarine from the ocean. We use any means possible to obtain military equipment from potentially hostile nations. So turnabout is fair play.

No. 6: The U.S. spy plane was not an innocent victim. No one can say for sure how the collision occurred, but it seems obvious that the U.S. version of events -- a spy plane minding its own business gets bumped by a Chinese jet -- isn't true. This was a case of the kind of cat-and-mouse that cars play on highways all the time.

If it turns out that the U.S. is wholly to blame, it wouldn't be the first time. A couple of years ago, American fighter pilots cut ski cables in Italy, killing 20 civilians with their recklessness. And just recently, show-offs and goof-offs cruising the world in a submarine sank a Japanese school boat, killing nine, four of whom were 17-year-old kids.

No. 7: The U.S. has fulminated for years about supposed spying by China against the U.S. Remember the Cox Report? For all of its bluster, it never went so far as to accuse China of flying spy planes around our borders. But it turns out that the U.S. regards such activity as routine and justifiable, if directed against other countries.

The message is obvious: The U.S. can do whatever it wants with its military, but believes itself exempt from the very laws it wants to apply to others. This attitude engenders hatred around the world.

Though no one in the U.S. cares to remember, the Chinese have not forgotten the U.S. role in the so-called Opium Wars. In this 19th-century drug war, military force was used to addict the Chinese to drugs so as to create customers for opium. Nor have they forgotten the Boxer Rebellion, when U.S. troops -- in pursuit of continuing economic control -- burned and looted the ancient imperial compound. Nor, to take more recent examples, have they forgotten the U.S. threatening them twice in the 1950s with nuclear annihilation for responding to huge Taiwanese troop movements to the islands of Quemoy and Matsu near the mainland.

To say there are double standards at work here is a wild understatement. Despite all the mistreatment, Beijing doesn't want war. It wants the U.S. to behave like a responsible trading partner, not the world hegemon it has become. But there is only so much humiliation and bloodshed that a nation can be subjected to before its citizens demand reprisal.

Washington probably doesn't want war either. What it wants is a license to spy on and otherwise invade the world, killing and maiming whenever the time seems right, and never having to be held responsible. Washington wants what every bully wants -- the freedom to beat people up and never pay the price.

American citizens should join their friends across the ocean and protest U.S. imperial adventures. Our heritage is one of peace. Our founders tried to create a system that would prevent the establishment of a world military empire. It is our moral duty to criticize such an establishment when it threatens to upset peaceful commercial ties, which in the Chinese case are extensive and magnificent.

At minimum, we must demand that U.S. commentators cut out the absurd Cold War language of belligerency, lies, and reprisal. China has never done anything to us. We must demand that our own government stop the spying, bombing and killing. No American citizen benefits from the U.S. Empire. But we each have much to gain from having it dismantled.

There is only one evil empire alive in the world today, and it is not China.

(Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr.)


[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Grunt Master: I am actually not arguing your point in the second paragraph I quoted, nor am I arguing with your plea/cry/call for peace. Just as the US has the right to fly observation flights near chinese waters, China has the right to observe the observer. A collision ocurred and someone was at fault. China wants to convince the US and the world that it was the US's fault--something that will be quite difficult, seeing as how the chinese are not allowing the US to meet with its crew in any substantial way. "Hey, your guy made a mistake and before we'll let you find out if it was your fault, we want you to admit guilt." Give me a break.

so... when you break your own laws and codes, then you will not argue? VERY convincing. US MAY had done good to the world before, but in the past two years, it had done TONS of harm
in Italy, Germany, Japan, Mid east, China, killing people, creating troubles. so is that the kind of "people's right" US always claimed about? no, all he wanted is "to beat people and walk away freely from it"

and don't you think it is as simple as "a collison, and it is accident" I tell you what, it is NOT. US's mistrust, hostile actions had started all this. had we been cooperation, there would be none of those crap. and even worse, US doesnt even say "sorry" how ham-fist is that? wake up, and face the reality, stop giving yourself excuses, and know that no one in the world likes US's attitude

[250]

Originally posted by Moridin: Uh Oh a religious topic! Will try to contian myself....nooooo....I am being pulled in.....it can't happen......HELP! I too am an atheist, but perhaps a different 'definition' than Moiraine . Yorick-- You mention all of the good that christianity has done for people. I do not disagree with you, but I have to say that christianity has also done quite a bit of harm to people as well! How many 'heretics' died in the names of christianity? Why are gays/lesbians hated so much? Why are there no women clergy? This may be more of a rant against organized religion, but the whole idea to me is a bit proposterous! Personally I like to rely on my own beliefs and power to change my life and those around me, rather than the teachings of a man that lived 2000 years ago. I don't intend to offend and am not bashing christianity or those who follow it, just giving my opinion

well, I do not believe those harms are done by christian. there is a significant between harms done by something and done in the name of something.

say, gay/lesbian are hated so much? if christian teachings are about hatred, destroying those that are different from you. then you can rightfully say, those people are harmed by christian. it is a very simple truth that anything, if used by ill intent, or good but by circumstance, will cause great damage.

it is the same as gun. is gun evil? nope, gun is gun. gun is a tool. but used by ill intent, gun is a tool to deliver harm. is christian evil? nope, its teachings are intended to be good, however, if led by blind faith or crazy enthusiastic, it will cause harm. then again, the later cannot be rightfully called "christian" for in their heart, there lays the difference between christianity and devil-worshiper

[Sentinel04]

Originally posted by Moridin: Uh Oh a religious topic! Will try to contian myself....nooooo....I am being pulled in.....it can't happen......HELP! I too am an atheist, but perhaps a different 'definition' than Moiraine . Yorick-- You mention all of the good that christianity has done for people. I do not disagree with you, but I have to say that christianity has also done quite a bit of harm to people as well! How many 'heretics' died in the names of christianity? Why are gays/lesbians hated so much? Why are there no women clergy? This may be more of a rant against organized religion, but the whole idea to me is a bit proposterous! Personally I like to rely on my own beliefs and power to change my life and those around me, rather than the teachings of a man that lived 2000 years ago. I don't intend to offend and am not bashing christianity or those who follow it, just giving my opinion

This is for Yorick but I'm gonna give my opinion anyway .

First, I'm agnostic. I was raised in a catholic household. A lot of the things up top aren't neccassarily true for all forms of christianity. I don't know much about protestants, so I won't go into their deal.

Why aren't there any females in the clergy? There are. Nuns.

Why are gays and lesbians left out? They aren't. In the catholic church there are programs where they, as a group, pray and basically worhsip together.

Now, the part about 'heretics' being killed might be true. I dunno, I'm not sure what are you refering to...

Well, there ya go. Oh yeah, btw, Alabamanan(sp?) RULES!! Heh I was watching that with my sister, and she got so pissed. I, personally, laughed my ass off.

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You're not lost if you don't care where you are.

[This message has been edited by Sentinel04 (edited 04-10-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by SpunkyMoFo: (OOC) Not here to reply to 250's post as I can't speak to that. I wanted to suggest to Yorick that he read "The Last Temptation of Christ". I haven't seen the movie but the book was absolutely amazing. Judging by other book-to-movie conversions I can only imagine that this case is the same in that the book outlines the thoughts and feelings of the characters so much more than the movie.

I worked with a guy who was the first Australian 'Jesus' for Jesus Christ Superstar when it came here. An English guy and one of the nicest I've ever met BTW, but anyhow, that was his source material (not the bible) on the directors request. I've heard it's very interesting from the discussions I had with him.
Thanks for the referral.

orginally posted by 250 I really know very little about christian. While I know Jesus fought to save humanity, and one only needs to ask for forgiveness. I am just not convinced by that very idea. And from what you just mentioned, it seems there is more to it. What a way of life does Jesus portrait? "loving his enemies, and turning cheeks"? also, here is a question, it may seem very extreme, but it is only a qeustion. what kind of view do you, as a christian, hold for a person that dislikes and hates the teaching of Jesus?

250
If a person dislikes and hates Jesus what is that to me? They are entitled to their opinion. I would hope that it is an educated opinion, and that they have actually read his words or analysis of his words rather than forming it in ignorance, but who am I to get upset? I would if anything feel similar to you would if you knew this great guy and loved hanging with him and talking with him, but there were people who didn't get him, and started slagging him off.

If it was based in ignorance, I'd have a go at them for not getting their facts straight, but otherwise, I'd feel regret that they felt that way and move on.

Re. What he taught, yes there is more than that, but in essence his teaching can be broken down into about 11 main themes, largely centred around:

God loves humanity to the extent that 'he' would become a man, and take any deserved fate for any committed evil upon himself - an innocent, and die in every humans place.

Various concepts of God and how to communicate with him directly in a relatable way rather than indirectly through priests.


He actually attacked religious leaders of the day, labelling them hypocrites, snakes, and blind, self centred people. Religion he said, should be caring for the sick and the old, the homeless, the poor etc.

He attacked judgementalism ("let he without sin cast the first stone") and hung out with an the 'dregs' of society, including an adulteress (punishable by death) tax collectors (despised in Jewish society - similar to now I'd say ) fishermen and the most oucast of all, lepers.

He advocated equality for all people, peace - through 'turning the other cheek' and breaking the cycle of hate and revenge.

He would go around healing people of their physical ailments, and then focused on their spiritual problems.

Jesus normally spoke in allegory, or parables. A means of communicating abstract thought in concrete imagery for easier relatability. As a lot was cuturally dependent they can seem a little odd, but they are no different to someone now talking about 'the wheels falling off', when referring to a business failing.

I once heard a business lecturer using Jesus' parable of the seed sower in investment terms. The parable underscored understanding the nature of investment/energy and maximising returns.

There are snippets of wisdom such as investing your talents wisely, using your position in society to benefit others and create goodwill rather than 'burning' others, and not relying on material possessions for happiness, but on spiritual areas.

Man there is so much, I'm only touching the iceberg. There is so much material out there, including the four 'gospels'. I'm tired (4:00am) and could use some sleep (9:00am start) but if you want more check out "Mere Christianity" by Athiest-turned-christian writer C.S.LEWIS. I read it 11 years ago and found it brilliant. You could always start with the book of 'John' or 'Matthew' in the bible itself.

I don't want to 'preach' and I hope folks don't consider this bible bashing. 250 you did ask, and so I've attempted to answer.

Let it be known that I respect everyones right to a belief however different from mine. I would feel like a bastard though - like I was holding out on some big secret - if I didn't tell you how much fulfilment, joy, and satisfaction I get from my relationship with Jesus.

There you go. Maybe I've shared too much.

I'm off for the night I think.


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O.K..... what do I do now? Goo goo goo choo?


A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 04-10-2001).]

[Grunt Master]

You keep bringing up PEACEFUL USE. Tell me, is it okay for a country to operate a destroyer or an aircraft carrier in international waters? Now, those aren't very peaceful, are they? Every country that has a navy operates its WARships and WARplanes in international waters that are designated for peaceful use.

The US plane was absolutely a spy plane--gathering information that could possibly be of use in the defense of the US and her allies. Most of the information gathered by spying is absolutely useless--but you never know until someone catches you with your pants down. China can gripe about spy planes in international air space all it wants; are they going to gripe about spy satellites in outer space as well?

And as long as we're talking about spying...lets remember that China also runs spy operations. Maybe they don't fly spy planes near the US coast (they don't have the technology for that--err, wait, I guess now they do), but they still run spy operations--on, over, around, and in US territory.

"Hey everyone, I'm going to operate one of the world's largest militaries, but I'm going to have to ask you not spy on me. I mean it: NO PEEKING." I suppose we should just ask China twice a year, "Are there any scheduled attacks or invasions anywhere in the near future? No? Okay, well, just promise you'll give us at least 30 days notice."

[250]

oh by the way, about gays/lesbians

I know that for a time in Europe, gays are encouraged by churchs. it was 15 centuries or soemthing. because the christian (?) teachings that peopel need to restrain their desire so gays were encouraged... (I am not sure the exact facts, ask Yorick! )

anyway, later the revolution came and washed away the old believes, they talked about "Sex Revolution" (is that the correct term?) for mid age monks. so that only proved more that, gay/lesbian hate didn't start from christian, but later, someone used christian as a tool to play out discrimination

[250]

You keep bringing up PEACEFUL USE. Tell me, is it okay for a country to operate a destroyer or an aircraft carrier in international waters? Now, those aren't very peaceful, are they? Every country that has a navy operates its WARships and WARplanes in international waters that are designated for peaceful use.

what are you talking about? China sending warplanes in international waters? are you awake? gee
"Report ground: we discovered USA spyplane, what we do."
"errr... it is international water, we cannot send our fighter, or someone else will say we broke the law"

it is like saying:" ouch he hit me, but i cannot hit him back because do so would make me an violent person"



The US plane was absolutely a spy plane--gathering information that could possibly be of use in the defense of the US and her allies. Most of the information gathered by spying is absolutely useless--but you never know until someone catches you with your pants down. China can gripe about spy planes in international air space all it wants; are they going to gripe about spy satellites in outer space as well?

you still dont get it? it is getting information for chinese's unfriendly nearby countries. the very act is hurting chinese people's right. so it is not peaceful use, so we have our right to defend ourselves. china is not even going for war, and china doesn't even want the least of it, why is US still so unreasonably sending naies and spyplanes? huh? to maintain peace? or to maintain his own control?
of course it is wrong when your action is harmful to the other. and lets back up one hundred steps, US's action is not benefitial for its own neither. he is doing that to SUBDUE china, he is afraid china to grow out of its own control. and that is his purpose. what else? holiday trip? JUST that attitude deserve it to say a "sorry" the unfriendly, untrust, uncooperate, and ham-fist, greedy attitude makes people sick


And as long as we're talking about spying...lets remember that China also runs spy operations. Maybe they don't fly spy planes near the US coast (they don't have the technology for that--err, wait, I guess now they do), but they still run spy operations--on, over, around, and in US territory.


ohhh, now you point fingers to china. two wrongs dont make a right, remember? when china get caught and killed US people, china say "sorry" and China say it with true sincerety. and if China doesn't do it, the world will isolate china, and US can give all the punishment he wants to as it likes.
got it? it doesn't matter what China did or going to do. in this mattar, US IS WRONG.

think about it: you cheated in your exam, and your teacher caught you, would you say "hey! that is unfair, Bob cheat too!" if Bob cheat too, both of you will receive punishment. you wont get away just because Bob cheats. same apply to US


"Hey everyone, I'm going to operate one of the world's largest militaries, but I'm going to have to ask you not spy on me. I mean it: NO PEEKING." I suppose we should just ask China twice a year, "Are there any scheduled attacks or invasions anywhere in the near future? No? Okay, well, just promise you'll give us at least 30 days notice."

use your head to look at the truth of it, read some news, read about what happened around the world, read about china's economy situtation, read about asian's condition. China doesn't want war. and stop sending armies and waste useless resource.