The "China" Crises

[250]

ok, this is not meant to be offending anyone, this is just what an impression i have had since the incidents happen, lets start from china:

Pilot #1 Wang Wei: "Report ground! American plane is crashing into me, can I open fire?!"

Senior officor sat comfortably zipping a gulp of warm tea, and slowly put down "Ecnomic Times" then said with a half-hearted tone: "what? are you serios? look carefully though, we will have a meeting to discuss it..."

Pilot #2: "GROUND! Wang Wei's plane was crashed!! I WILL HAVE REVENGE!!"

General: "huh? nah, you cannot do that, think about it, if you open fire, you will be responsible for warfare, do you dare? and don't you forget, there is no missle on your plane!"

Pilot #2: "..."

lol, ok, here is what happen to US side

Secret Anget:" Sir, we just had emergency from China?"

Powell looks to president "what do we do sir?"

Bush opens his course book, and begin to search China 101 "crap, 'relationship with China' I haven't gone to this chapter yet! I say we execute the teacher who was teaching me this!"

Powell turns to the agent :" announce to media, we will have an execution."

Someone passing by and overheard the conversation: "hey, hmmm.... don't you guys think you should at least hear what is happening first?"

Bush hands clap his forehead as if just understood whats going on :" thats righ! give me a full report tomorrow afternoon, now i am going to play golf with maxican president."

Bush Senior rush into the office with haste "SON!! what the hell are you doing! get your ass down, and hear the report!"

Bush: "err... sure father, if you say so."

so they heard the report

Powell once again looks to Bush : " what we do?"

Bush Jr.: " I say we have the execution first."

Bush Senior: "NO son! don't you get it? everybody thinks you an idiot, I am afraid even your mother heard that, but now it is your chance! As long as they held our airmen hostage, the congress will join you! everyone will support you! now it is your chance! you MUST act! don' back off from China, show them your ham-fist!"

Bush Jr. :" ...can I play golf now?"

[250]

Donut, while I do not agree with you on a few details, I appreciate your sensible comments as a third party.

[Accord]

Once again, insightful and words of wisdom have been spoken. I am speechless (again).

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

[250]

Originally posted by Accord: Once again, insightful and words of wisdom have been spoken. I am speechless (again).

you become Lord AO again?

[Accord]

Yup.....is this good or bad??

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

[Sir Taliesin]

There is no one on this forum that I hate or even want to flame and if that is how I came off at 1:30 this morning. I apologize. That is specifically directed at you 250. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway.

This topic was originally about the China incident and it generated into what I perceived as US bashing. I also admit that in the past my government has made some horrible mistakes.
One that I can think of, in my life time, is the support of the Shah of Iran and I sure others of
you, out there can think of other examples as well. But what does this have to do with China. We do think of China as a competitor economically, much as we think of the EU. The difference is the EU nations are also our allies and China is not. We can embrace old enemies as allies. We have with Germany and Japan. But I, personally don't ever see China being our ally as it exists today. I would be very ashamed of our government if we ever embraced a government that gave us Tianiman Square or supported a regime like Po Pot in Cambodia.

Imagine if you will, that we all live under a government like the People's Republic of China.
Where you have to have permission to have Internet access. Where that access is monitored 24
hours a day. Where school children don't go to school to get an education, but rather make fireworks, so some military officer can make a lot of money. Where ethnic groups are suppressed and in some cases ethnically cleanized (Tibet). Where there is no freedom of religion. Where religion isn't even allowed. Where peaceful movement like Fo lun Gong (sp)
are brutally suppressed. Where people cannot congregate at a gathering unless it is state sponsored. Where people like Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. can't express their opinions with out going to jail for twenty years. Where you don't get to choose your profession, but the state chooses it for you. Where you cannot travel abroad without government permission, and when you do, your family is held hostage until your return. Where books are banned or heavily censored and ideas aren't freely exchanged. Where AD&D or Baldurs Gate cannot be played. Would we all like to live like that? What about it? Sound like a good place to live? Not to me. I couldn't live that way.

I know that there are many other countries that are this way, even some that are so called democratic nations! I know that my own country has had, and in some cases continues to have problems with some of these things. All nations had them and continue to have them. No one nation is exempt! However I would give anything to make sure my children continue to have what I do. Even my life if necessary. Sometimes that means my nation has to do things that I
or others don't like. Like gathering intelligence on another nation, or spying as some of you wish to call it. We do this, so that maybe someday, if it should ever come to it (and God forbid
that it ever does) we have the upper hand in a war. So that we can win. After all is that not the objective of a war; to win. In some cases, that might be to save your nation. Such as what happened during WWII.

If you all recall your history, we were attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor. With proper intelligence that might never have happened. Maybe what we needed was a "spy plane" flying up and down the Japanese coast that would have told us they more moving out a large fleet of ships to attack not only us but the Philippines, Malaysia and New Guinea . We could have
possibly headed off those attacks with a diplomatic effort. Possibly saved millions of lives that were lost in the war. Of course if that had happened, we all might be greeting each other with "Heil Hitler" or bowing to the Emperor. I don't think that would be except able. That was a lesson that my country will never forget (I hope).

Does anyone here think that it could happen again? Except this time it could be Taiwan with its population in the millions. These people have lived in a democracy (maybe not a perfect one, but is there really such a thing) enjoying freedoms that most of us here enjoy, for over 50 years. Would it be fair to them for us, as a world, to turn our backs on them if they where about to be attacked. To become some warlord's slaves, making products for the rest of us around the world to use. Maybe, just maybe, gathering intelligence on what I call a totalitarian government isn't such a bad thing after all. I personally feel that it is a job that must be done.

The arguments about who was at fault in the accident will never be settled. Were any of us there? The only ones I know for sure are the 24 US personal on the plane and the two Chinese
F-8 pilots. It's one sides word against the other. I can think of another reason for the collision between the EP-3 and the F-8. What about a sudden down draft or a strong wind. All of us that have flown on a plane have experienced turbulence, where the craft goes up and down, and side to side, sometimes hundreds of feet. That could have happened, just as a number of things could have happened. None of us will never know, because we weren't there. We can set and argue this back and forth and never settle anything.

As far as an apology. I don't think it will ever happen. I personally don't think it should happen.
There was an incident and a man died and that is very tragic and I hope all will accept our condolences. But I think that the only reason the Chinese want an apology is to grandstand. They were the ones that blew this out of proportion. Not the US. We simply asked for our plane and our crew back. We don't really expect the plane back, but we had to ask.

For those of you that took the time to read all of this. Thank you very much! This is what I believe and I will not change my opinion, unless someone can prove me wrong. If I changed your opinion, fine. If I didn't, then that is fine too. I don't not ever want to dictate to someone else how they should feel and neither do I want to be dictated too. I never have claimed to be a great debater and I wish I were more articulate, but I am just an average person of average intelligence. I wouldn't want to be anything else.


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Sir Taliesin

Ten Rings there are, and nine gold torcs on the battlechiefs of old...

[250]

well, Sir, I am from china, while some of you said is true, some are not. Think about it, I am abroad, and my parents visited me six times in the past three years, they hadn't been held hostage

sure, you don't get to say everything you wanted in china, and I am afraid that is just an reality so hard to change right now. lets not get into wether is neccesary or not.

I had computer in china, and I had internet access. was it monitored? well, i am not sure. but there are thousands of "computer bars" out there in the streets (every major city). one only needs to pay a few dollars, and one can stay there as long as he wants. and they all have access to internent, if one wants to monitor all these computers, I think it is very huge a job with little benefit. also, some internet access is restricted, such as pornagraphical ones, which i think it should be.

I am educated from chinese school, and I know well that state does not choose your profecion. sure, there is a lot difference between chinese education system and US ones, but one is not neccesserily better.

you mentioned Pearl Harbor being bombed by Japan. well, if one talks about historical incidents, one should not talk it out of context. Japan was expanding at that time, their military forces invaded/occupied many asian countries. this, at the same time, was harmful to US's control over east asia. US would join the war against Japan sooner or later, and that was why Japan started fire first. It was UNAVOIDABLE due to the confrontation of two nation's interests.

however, look what China had done? in the past 50 years, China had only confronted US militarily twice. one was Korean War, another was Vietnam War. Both warfares happened near Chinese mainland, shouldn't a country properly interfere when a war had a great possibility to do harm to its people? I think yes, and the actions were justified. After all, don't send your army here, and we are fine.

so why the US began to constantly spying on China? China had no interest of going to war with US. I, as a Chinese, saw what is needed for china. Chinese people are still below average standard of richness, China needs to develope economically as well as its people's idea of democratic, liberty, and freedom of speech. If there is one thing China doesn't want now, it is war with US.

However, US had been constantly sending military aircraft along Southern China sea. The purpose while mostly remained secret, was obvious obtaining information for its unfriendly nearby countries. I mean, WHY?? does that mean, US want every chinese to extinct from this earth? does that mean US want every chinese to suffer as long as US exists? does that mean every chinese to live under its shadow in their lives? cannot the two countries sit down and talk like normal people?

Competitor, a shameful declaration. Spy, a poor excuse. we all should think and reason, like a rationa being we are. we all should look into our own faults before defend our actions and point our fingers

lets pray there be no war

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).]

[250]

by the way, you can play AD&D and Baldur's Gate
before I came to US, I played Diablo I, and Starcraft... good games. Quake were very popular in China as well. Hard to imagine, huh?

[Wah]

I don't think it can end this way, America has retaliated with the opinion that the whole "holding back thing" has become more of a hostage type of action rather than just common sense questioning - which I think China has done all along.

China has been pretty patience up to now, but my Dad told me something about America sending in troops demanding an explaination for the delay in releasing the people.

Is sorry such a hard word to say in the world?
Maybe having power isn't everything after all.

The Old Saying: Too much of a good thing = Big head.

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Greetings mortals, my name is Wah, Arch Lich Wah.

[250]

yes
I ve already heard lots people say:
the one with power cannot be reasoned with. onyl stronger power can submit him.

I certainly don't hope this happens