The "China" Crises

[Memnoch]

I think that you guys have all totally lost sight of what you are arguing about and have turned the thread into “what I hate about the US/China”. Maybe you all need to take a step back and relax for a bit before the thread degenerates into pure flaming – I sense that some comments are starting to get personal and none of us want that – just keep it intellectual, fellas.

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[250]

Originally posted by Yorick: Good on you 250. I've been reading this debate with a degree of interest. I hope people stop dissing you for you opinions and realise (regardless of their agreement or not) that you have made some valid points, rather than 'drivel'. All I have to say on the matter is this: If two people who love each other can't coexist without conflict then what chance do nations of people who don't understand each other? The other point is this. If I bump into someone in the street - even if it is not my fault, I will still apologise to the other person to negate any bad feeling. Another point is this. War is not the only way a nation is aggressive or "mean". Are not Multinationals the new empires? Complete with coups, takeovers, provinces and even dynasties? (think Rupert and Lachie Murdoch) Aslo when nations dump wheat in the ocean, or pay farmers not to grow food - so the status quo is maintained though people are starving - is not this a hidious and destructive evil? (Imagine if some starving bloke was in front of you and you burnt some bread rather than giving it to him.) Just as an individual has darkness and flaws that need to be self examined from time to time, so to do nations. I would hope that citizens of certain nations would acknowledge that despite the good a nation is capable of, it is also capable of evil - just as it is in an individual. Ignoring that evil lets it grow like a cancer. Finally this is my last point. All this talk of wars and who will win..... There is no winner with war. It is a curse upon humanity.

!!!!!!!

finally, someone with great common sense and wisdom and knowledge and ack... i am short of positive adverbs, errrr... would negative ones do?

Yorick mate, I always snorted when people said you are wise. today, I decide to take off Cloudbringer and Memnoch's statues, and start worshiping you!

I knew you would make sensible comments!! I kewn it!! (so does it make me as wise as you? j/k) today, I saw something I never seen before. I never knew why I behaved at this board, now i understand, because i found someone I respect, and you just showed me the reason!

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by 250: Yorick mate, I always snorted when people said you are wise. today, I decide to take off Cloudbringer and Memnoch's statues, and start worshiping you!

You can't take my statue off! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




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[250]

Originally posted by Memnoch: You can't take my statue off! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUAHAHAHAHAHA! no worry, yours is just one step lower than Yorick! it is done! BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Yorick: Finally this is my last point. All this talk of wars and who will win..... There is no winner with war. It is a curse upon humanity.

War isn't about who is right, war is about who is left.



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[250]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I believe thats my point exactly, to say that U.S.A.'s actions are bad when the are many examples throughout history truely bad behaviour. What did the U.S.A. realy do? We flew an electronic evesdroping plane (spyplane is a term used by the great news media) in international air space. How can that be ham-fisted? I submit that trying to scare or alter the course of a plane in international air space is ham-fisted. Even now the Russian gov. still sends their electronic evesdroppers off our coast. The U.S.A.'s response is to send fighters up to keep them out of our air space. The Russain response is to stay out of our air space. The result of both of those actions are NO planes get hit, run into, shot down, there's alot of hand gesture diplomicy between the pilots. These men are professional they understand their actions could cause the deaths of many people. They play by the rules. In 1981, if I remember correctly, a KAL passenger flight was shot down besause it was mistaken for one of our evesdroppers. The radar operater screwed the pooch on that one. That's ham-fisted. The pilot fired his missle at the plane a 747, it looks nothing like a EC-135.

it is not the action "ham-fisted" well, it is, but anyway, it is American government's ATTITUDE and the very concept guiding their series of military/non-military actions "ham-fisted"

[Donut]

I've been away for the weekend so I've missed most of this. For what it's worth I would like to make a few points.

Firstly, there is no question of a 'physical' war between the US and China. Both Governments are aware of the consequences of this. In the long term the US can 'punish' China economically and this is what will ensure the safe return of the 24 US servicemen. In the short term, however, China holds all of the cards and will use them to maximise the embarrassment to the US government. If a Chinese plane made an emergency landing in California wouldn't the CIA want to ask the crew a few questions?

Secondly, there is no question of the US being 'caught' spying. Everyone knows that they do it (as do many other nations). Part of the job that the spyplane does is to 'provoke' a reaction from the Chinese radar and other defence facilities to see how they react. As to what happened, we don't know yet, but my guess is that the Chinese pilot was doing what many of the fighter pilots do. That is, he was flying alongside the spyplane making his presence known. Unfortunately he made a pilot error and paid with his life. I have seen film of a British pilot flying wingtip to wingtip with a Russian spyplane and waving to the Russian pilot.

Finally, if as an American you hold the view that 'we are not interested in what happens in the rest of the world' that's fine - it's your opinion. Unfortunately if you are the US president and you hold that view you should not be suprised that when an incident such as this happens you are 'ill equipped' to deal with it quickly and quietly. When George W won the election I was struck by how little experience he had in foreign affairs and that foreign policy had paid virtually no part in the US election campaign. I had hoped that, like Reagan did, he would surround himself with people in his Government who had the requisite knowledge and experience. Unfortunately it would not appear that he has done this. His father was US ambassador to China and head of the CIA, I trust he asked his opinion.

You cannot deal with countries such as China without understanding their mindset, they think 'differently' to western nations. If you blunder in demanding things you will receive a cold response. As has been mentioned by others the concept of 'saving face' is very important to many nations in the Far East. On the day that China sent a high ranking member of their government to meet with the Bush administration for the first time the US changed the status of China to 'competitor', hardly a diplomatic move.

Much of the posturing of the respective Governments is for internal consumption in China and the US. The Chinese press will be projecting China as being the victim of 'The Great Satan', meanwhile China is a soft target for George W, they cannot harm the US militarily (without suffering hugely) or, in the short term, economically. In the long term though China and the US need each other economically. China is a huge, largely untapped market for the US multinationals and it is Big Business which sets the agenda with the US government.

I'm sure this crisis will be resolved soon. The US will not apologise and China will claim victory whatever happens but there will be a form of words from both sides 'expressing regret' over the incident.

In the end it will be done through diplomacy, it's only a pity that it was allowed to escalate in the way it was. I hope that George W is on a steep learning curve.

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[Gray Mage]

Originally posted by Yorick: Finally this is my last point. All this talk of wars and who will win..... There is no winner with war. It is a curse upon humanity.

Wisely put, my good man.


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Feel My Power

Arcane Adept of the OHF, "So let it be written, So let it be done"

[Moridin]

A quote from the almighty President of the United States of America

"relations with China 'could become damaged' if the standoff over the spy plane continues."

Does this guy have a grasp on things or what!

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It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant,
than open it and remove all doubt!

First to say I totaly agree on what 250 said

But this is important
When i started this topic I wanted a discussion
And discussion can be very heated i know
But discussion should not affect your view on a specific person
And i have the feeling that this Did happen somewhere in pages 2 and 3
Don't take everything to personal
And don't take the internet to serious

Bye for now

Rikard Indrõi Sigþursson better known in RL as Chao Kang Tai
What ever you prefer