Looking for source material

[Nerull]

I've been designing a new D&D campaign for a while now (in between classes, so it has been taking me a while). Anyway, I've been thinking of switching the emphasis that is placed in the game from the standard conflict of "good vs. evil" to "law vs. chaos". I know that this has been done in literature before, but with nowhere near the frequency as good vs. evil (which of course tends to have more appeal). What I am looking for is source material about worlds where the conflict is law vs. chaos. I know that I read the Elric saga years ago, and that is a good place to start. However, I am looking for other stories about worlds where law and chaos are the two sides in the conflict. Any leads you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

[Morgeruat]

The thieves world anthologies have the mages as shock troops for the war vs chaos, although in the first three books (the ones I've read) the conflict hasn't happened yet, just been mentioned. but still it's a good place to start.

The Rod of 7 Parts module for D&D and later restatted for 2nd ed might also give you some ideas, it's about a quest for a 7 piece rod that can destroy chaos, kind of interesting to see a chaotic good character be a bad guy in the module, and a lawful evil guy considered a hero by forces that run the universe.

{edit} it's Original D&D before there was a good/evil axis for alignment, not D&D 3E or 3.5E

[ 04-28-2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Nerull]

I forgot about that module. That does supply some good material, especially game-wise. I've heard of (but not read) Thieves' World, but it sounds like I might have to pick the series up.

Actually, the issue of the elves have been really tossing about in my mind since I've been thinking of this. Elves tend to be chaotic good, and if you include drow (chaotic evil), you have supporters of chaos. Of course, since in most law vs. chaos conflicts lean towards the idea of law being the "better" choice, this would mean that elves would be on the outside looking in compared to some other races (dwarves, etc.). Quite the dilemma, especially for those players wanting to play elves. They would literally have to be renegades.

Then again, I do plan to make both sides have equally good and bad sides (i.e. still have the devils on the law side and the demons on the chaos side, showing that both sides have "dark" sides).

Anyway, any other sources that I might read up on? I just want to see what's out there already, so I get a general idea/vision of what I want to do.

[Kazilan]

You might want to check out books written by L.E. Modesitt Jr. Fun fantasy stuff set in a world with mages who use either law or chaos magic. The Saga of Recluce series might be a good place to start, you can probably find them in a library to try them out. I hope this response isnt too late to help.

[Nerull]

Not at all...I've been keeping track of this thread when I can, and I was just finishing finals this past week, so now I can start my research. So far we have:

</font>

• Michael Moorcock's works (especially Elric saga)</font>
• Thieves World anthology (I looked through the latest book, but didn't see any references; I'll have to dig deeper)</font>
• Rod of 7 Parts module</font>
• Books by L.E. Modesitt Jr. (any particular titles? Or is The Saga of Recluse the one you are referring me to?)</font>

Also, I heard of a book long ago where the world was completely taken over by law, and all chaos was banished. Then a chaotic man was born into the world, causing disruptions to the "natural order". I can't remember the name for the life of me. Anyone heard of this one?

[Albromor]

Nerull, even in Modesitt's work - and some of his books are very interesting and very well written -you will still see a strong undercurrent of good and evil. Still, Modesitt goes where others have basically not journeyed. As for Thieves World I managed to read every one of the books that came out in this series. Keep to the first few because as you go you will find the various authors making their creations more and more uber. It became very frustrating for me. I will be very interested in seeing how you will run your campaign centralized more on law and chaos rather than good and evil. Keep us informed.

[Morgeruat]

hmm, probably should have mentioned this earlier, but anything you could pick up for basic D&D (ie no good-evil alignments, just law vs. chaos) would probably help immensely ie basic, expert, master, and immortals rulesets

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: hmm, probably should have mentioned this earlier, but anything you could pick up for basic D&D (ie no good-evil alignments, just law vs. chaos) would probably help immensely ie basic, expert, master, and immortals rulesets

Not a bad suggestion. One thing I would note, though, is that they essentially made Lawful into "good" and Chaotic into "evil". For example, they describe chaotic as betraying the party, not keeping their word if it serves their interest, etc. That annoys the hell out of me, since this is more a chaotic evil character (or even a neutral evil character). What about elves, who generally are good natured but free-spirited? Of course, the Lawful guys might portray Chaos as being that way, but then the Chaotic guys might come back and portray Law as being tyrannical, stifling individuality, forcing others to follow their idea of right, etc. However, in the Basic D&D sets (including Expert, etc.) chaos essentially equals evil, and law essentially equals good.

I essentially want to make the two philosophies equally bad and good, but of course each side would portray their side as "good" and the other side as "bad". However, both would have good sides and bad sides. That's part of the appeal of the idea to me; I want neither side to be truly "right" or "wrong", and have the people on either side have strong arguing points for their side (and against the other side). They would probably put forward their better face (i.e. the lawful and chaotic celestials) when trying to win converts, but when the chips are down and they are losing the fight (or otherwise really need to get nasty), they would bust out the evil guys (devils or demons).

In fact, I've even toyed with the idea of adding good and evil as well, but doing so by having Law and Chaos being the older, established sides. Good and Evil would be new philosophies, pulling people away from the older philosophies. Thus, there would be conflict between the new philosophies and the old philosophies, as well as the "one side against another" that was already there.

However, it is still worth checking some of the older stuff. Especially the Immortal ruleset, since it deals with the immortals and their rules. I do remember that one having some good stuff in it.

[Nerull]

Just an update (couldn't see starting a new thread just for this).

I just bought The Magic of Recluse, and have read a decent way in. Very good suggestion. Recluse is very much like an expect a land dominated by law to be like (at least one that envisioned itself as a "good" place).

[shadowhound]

I would like to see more Law vs Chaos campaigns, mainly because my characters are usually neutral evil. I can just see myself weaving between both sides in the search for personal gain.

I would just like to know how would the Lawful individuals look at neutrals and how would the chaotic individuals look at them?
I can just imagine that the Lawfuls would ignore the neutrals or convert them while the Chaotics would try and destroy them. (Well some of them anyway, I have never really been able to see a group of Chaotics working together well for a reasonable amount of time.)