Barbarian vs. Berserker.

[krunchyfrogg]

Which do you prefer and why?

(Edited to add class/kit descriptions)

Barbarian(Class) Strengths Immune to Backstab 1-12 HP per level rather than 1-10 +2 Movement Bonus Rage once/day for every 4 levels (while raged, +4 Constitution and Strength for 5 rounds, +2 AC penalty, +2 Save vs. Magic, Immune to Charm, Hold, Fear, Maze, Confusion, Level Drain) At level 11, 10% resistance to Slashing, Piercing, Crushing, and Missile Weapons (+5% for every 4 levels thereafter) Weaknesses Cannot wear full plate or plate mail armor Cannot go beyond normal weapon specialization (++) Berserker(Fighter kit) Strengths Can use Berserker Rage once per day for every 4 levels (While raged: +2 bonus to hit and damage, -2 AC bonus, Immune to: Level Drain, Charm, Hold, Fear, Maze, Imprisonment, Stun, and Sleep, temporary 15 HP increase [taken away at end of rage - could cause death]) Advanced Weapon Specialization (+++++) Can use any weapon Can use any armor Weaknesses Winded after Rage (suffers -2 penalty to hit and damage, and a +2 AC penalty) Cannot specialize in ranged weapons (+ only)

[ 07-25-2005, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]

[Sir Goulum]

I'd take a berserker myself. Aren't Barbarians not allowed to wear armor?

[Olorin]

I'm partial to the barbarian myself. The dwarven barbarian in particular. They can wear armor, just not plate armor. You lose out on a few points of AC. On the other hand, their rage ability doesn't cause you to lose control of them, so you can still control their targetting. With a 19 CON dwarf, they also have massive hitpoints. I make up for the lack of plate mail by using a shield...there are a few nice throwing axes, and one great throwing hammer (dwarves only) that make bows a waste on this char anyway.

Also, raging with a base CON of 19 will get you to 23 CON...which results in a decent regen rate. Use any excess rages before resting for free healing. They also have permanent immunity to backstab, at gain phys resistance as they level.

The barbarian's rage is also boosts himself more. +4 STR will give more that +2 hit +2 damage, and +4 CON will give more than 15 bonus hp.

A berserker can wear heavier armor, and stack proficiencies more, but you also have to be more careful that they don't attack your own party, and after they finish each target, you can't control who they go after next. The one huge advantage a berserker has is dual-classing. But if I just wanted a single class tank, I'd take a dwarven barbarian. He'll probably get hit more often, but with the damage resistance (+no backstabs) and higher hit points, I think he's a more durable tank.

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Olorin: I'm partial to the barbarian myself. The dwarven barbarian in particular. They can wear armor, just not plate armor. You lose out on a few points of AC. On the other hand, their rage ability doesn't cause you to lose control of them, so you can still control their targetting.

Hangon, lemme stop you right there. Neither the Berserker or Barbarian loses control. Only Minsc.

[Olorin]

Ahhh, my only experience with berserkers was Minsc. I assumed they all worked that way, and thus was avoided making my own. That does make a DC berserker/? a much more attractive build.

[SixOfSpades]

Generally, the Barbarian is better at Dual-Wielding, and the Berserker is better with a good Shield. This is because the Barbarian's Rage weakens their AC (which was worse than the Berserker's to begin with), while the Berserker's strengthens it. So, the Barbarian takes reduced damage while the Berserker takes fewer hits.

One thing I must note: The physical benefits gained from the Barbarian's Rage can be easily duplicated through other means. STR items abound, and STR potions are beyond plentiful. The CON bonus seems trivial when you consider the fact that you could quite easily have a natural CON of 23 or 24, and besides, the regeneration you get through CON, no matter how high, is less than that from a Ring of Regeneration. In comparison, the Berserker's +2 bonus to THAC0, AC, and damage stacks with everything (well, okay, it can't exceed the game's innate AC cap of -24, but hardly anyone can attain that anyway), and is always welcome. So, now let us consider the magical benefits gained from their Rages: Both protect from much the same things, including Level Drain (yes, both Rages protect from Level Drain), but only the Berserker's protects from Imprisonment.

There is also the fact that to obtain a decent AC, the Barbarian is pretty much required to find some very highly enchanted Chainmail, meaning he can't wear a Ring of Protection, which in turn means he's got an effective permanent +2 penalty to his Saving Throws.

This is starting to make the Berserker look like the clear winner, but consider this as well: By the final battle of ToB, the Barbarian can have 65% permanent Physical resistances (if you have Ascension installed), which jumps up to 105% with Hardiness, which cannot (I believe) be dispelled. Of course, that's only just in time for the final battle, during the majority of the game, your Hardiness Resists will max out at 80%, which is still one heck of a lot.

[Klutz]

One more MAJOR benefit of the Berserker (alluded to by Olorin): a Human Berserker can dual-class, but a Human Barbarian cannot.

Another point in favor of the Berserker: Full Plate Mail has excellent AC bonuses in addition to its rock-bottom base AC of 1 (+3 or +4 bonus vs all physical attack types except crushing I think). So against a majority of attack types, Full Plate Mail actually functions at AC -2 or -3. I don't recall what Chain mail's AC modifiers are, but I know they aren't as good.

Amusingly, what is supposed to be one of the major points in favor of the Berserker normally isn't so much: Grandmastery (+++++) is only +1 to hit, initiative, and damage better than Specialization (++).

Personally I'm partial to Berserkers that specialize in several different melee weapons and weapon styles, and usually dual-classed ones. My first evil PC was an SOA-only dualclass Berserker/Cleric, and I'm currently playing a Berserker/Druid through SOA and TOB.

[Lord Lothar]

I love both classes but I prefer Beserkers because I like their enrage bonuses better than the barb's rage and the fact that my fighters have no need for ranged weapons. That gives the beserker IMO no negatives while the barb has some minor issues like being limited to shadow dragon or white dragon armour. I typically dual wield with barbarians for more damage seeing as they will have a bad AC and need to kill their enemies quickly. With beserkers I use 2 handed swords because they get AC bonuses from their rage so they don't need a shield and can do heavy hitting.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Klutz: Amusingly, what is supposed to be one of the major points in favor of the Berserker normally isn't so much: Grandmastery (+++++) is only +1 to hit, initiative, and damage better than Specialization (++).

I agree, the Law of Diminishing Returns takes effect in spades here. But with the True Grandmastery patch (which I think is in BaldurDash), Grandmastery also grants an additional attack per round.

[Dalamar Stormcrow]

The Grandmastery Patch is definetly in Baldurdash AND in Ease-of-Use IIRC.

[ 07-28-2005, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Dalamar Stormcrow ]