Smoking Ban

[Mordenheim]

Still waiting on that one single case of second hand smoke causing death...

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Yorick: In other English speaking countries, a bar is known as a pub. A PUBLIC BAR as opposed to a clubs private bar for members only.

In the interests of pedantry, I'll point out that in England, bars are indeed referred to as pubs - standing for public house. I know that doesn't contribute anything much, and is exceptionally picky, but hey - that's me.

And on the whole issue of smoking around children - I have heard arguments for and against being able to smoke around your kids, but what about pregnant mothers? I mean, their whole argument for abortion rights is based around "It's my body", but does anyone actually defend making pregnant women inhale smoke that has been medically proven to injure the child in the womb if inhaled by the mother? Anyway, that's a bit OT, so don't answer it Seeing the kids/ill health/smoking stuff just made it pop into my mind.

And to answer another point, I'm sure I saw on the BBC news that new, exclusively non-smoking bars have been opened in England, and are proving to be amazingly successful. It seems that, at least in this country, drinkers wishing to imbibe and not inhale ( ) do indeed outweigh those wishing to smoke, which seems to counter a point made by someone (Mordheim? Apologies if mistaken) a page or two back.

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: Still waiting on that one single case of second hand smoke causing death...

Your wish is my command - a well known English case of a TV presenter who died through the effects of passive smoking. Took me about 3 seconds to find innumerable articles citing it.

http://www1.thdo.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/A810073

Roy Castle was diagnosed with lung cancer despite being a lifelong non-smoker (it's believed he was a victim of what has become known as 'passive smoking' due to his time working in smokey clubs, playing the trumpet). Nevertheless, he amazed all with his enthusiastic, positive attitude to his predicament, drawing on his devout faith in Christianity and his determination not to let his final years go to waste. He became the figurehead for the Cause for Hope Lung Cancer Appeal (later renamed the Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation) and spent his last months raising money for the future development of the world's first 'International Centre for Lung Cancer Research'4 on his 'Tour of Hope', a massive 1200-mile walk around the UK. Despite warnings from his surgeon, Roy used every last vestige of energy to promote the cause, knowing full well that his time was short.

see also :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/91322.stm

[ 05-11-2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Stormymystic: do you drive a car yoric? No or ride a bus? Not really or even light a fire? Can't say I do do you buy from companies that make plastic? I suppose I do.. SPRUNG! Now, what's your point? guess what everything here kills people everyday, smog, toxins from plastics wood burning causes just as much carbon-dioxide as cigs do and lest not forget the oil that when burned poluttes the air we breath, non- smokers do just as much if not more than smokers do to distroy the planet, all we do is enjoy a smoke once and a while, and when i drink or play pool, i like to smoke

Ah. Well. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as your smoke doesn't get near a nonsmoker that is. The moment your decision to smoke overrides a nonsmokers decision not to, there is a serious problem.

[ 05-12-2003, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: I smoke, cheap foul smelling cigars, if you don't like it don't come to my house. I smoke at work if you don't like it don't patronize my business. But It WILL be a cold day in "Hale" before I'm forced to stop, they'll plant my red-neck rear end in the ground before I'm forced to doing anything I don't want to do.

No-one's forcing you to stop smoking. What are you talking about John?

The law is catching up with smoking in public places. Places where nonsmokers have had to endure smokers inconsideration for years now.

Planes, trains, and now bars are gradually becoming places where those of us ALERGIC to tobacco, no longer have to avoid, or endure smoke under duress. Why should I have to give up singing in public because people don't have the courtesy to not smoke around non smokers?

Most smokers just don't give a shyt. I've seen smokers blow smoke over people (who don't have a cigarette) like they hold them in disdain, Which they don't. Many don't ask. I am so appreciative when a smoker ASKS if I mind if they smoke near me. Frighteningly rare though.

So now, finally smokers are forced to be considerate of others. If you want a cig, smoke at home, outside, in private, just not around nonsmokers or in public places where your choice to smoke overrides the nonsmokers choice not to. [/QUOTE]What the "Hale"! You are saying that a bar that is owned by a private individual, private company, Or PUBLIC TRADED COMPANY for that matter is a public place? Have you lost your mind? It's not a public place it's called private property. There is noway around that FACT. Sorry but you are not going to even have that point at all. If you try to sing in a bar and the bar owner doesn't want you there and tells you to leave, if you don't leave it is CRIMIMAL TRESPASS and you go to jail, DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200, period end of story. Where's your public place now? HHHHHMMMMMMM? So yes they are FORCING me to STOP, in those locations. Noway arround it at all. Yes Miss Reeka ma'am, that does smack of communism!, Nazism, or any other Totalitarism that anybody wishes to label it. There is a world of differance in the owner of the busines saying he doesn't want smoking in their business and the Government telling a business owner that they MUST not have smoking in their business.

I pulled this gem out and qouted it in full So now, finally smokers are forced to be considerate of others. If you want a cig, smoke at home, outside, in private, just not around nonsmokers or in public places where your choice to smoke overrides the nonsmokers choice not to. you just testified against yourself and for me, please note the word force. normaly at this time if I was going to be mericful I would say "The prosecution rests" but tonight I'm not "feeling" mericful, which is ok since it's a "FEELING

Smokers distain nonsmokers, that very well maybe, but it's not against the law to distain others. How do you know if an individual is distaining another or not distaining another? Can you see into their heart? Show me the nail holes in your hands, your feet, or where the spear piereced your side that qualifies you to make that kind of judgment into another's heart? If they are there then you can appear beside me right now as I'm writing this... Nope no appearance. That point is mute, as you already tesified in your above quote "Which they don't".
I appeciate alot of things, but does that give me the right to make others bend to my will? Or you the right to make others bend to your will? If it does then it works BOTH ways! It is my will that the non smoker shut up about it. I'll bet right now that there is going to be a lot of flak about my stament of will by people not wanting to bend to my will that want me to bend to thiers. Any takers on that bet?

Show me ONE verifable death that has come from second hand smoke! "Hale" you can even enlist the help of the good Doctor Attilaus (I knew I'd blow the spelling) to help you in your search. I'm sure he has access to the world's major medical journals and studies and could help you in that quest. But don't hold your breath to find even ONE verifiable case.

Let's be honest here (and it's been my experiance that not a whole "Hale" of a lot of people possess suficant testoterone producing glands to be honest) the majority of non smokers don't like smoking because they think smoking is yucky and smells bad. I think alot of things are yucky smell bad, sound bad, look bad, taste bad or feel (as in the sense of touch) bad. Are you going to give me the same right to decide what can and can't be done by you. As you are demanding I give you. If not it is complete Hypocriacy, noway around that either.

As you (universal "you" for anyone wishing to enter in to this scrap) can tell I got a dog in this fight and you better pack your lunch and come loaded for bear, because you're going to be at it for a looooonnnngggg time. You better come with verifiable facts and not "feelings" because I'll use my "feelings" agianst you. You will HAVE to submit to my "feelings" if you try to make me submitt to your "feelings" or face the fact of your Hypocriacy. [/QUOTE]John what the hell is your problem man? You live in a representative democracy. The will of the people has been voiced. Nonsmokers have had it with smokers lighting up and rudely polluting our air. It's so easy. GO OUTSIDE. Simple. Not a big dif in your life, but a huge deal to the asthmatic, the girl with bronchitis, the waitress who HAS to make ends meet, the singer, the tobacco allergic person, the guy who's trying to quit smoking, the athlete or any other human that can't stand the smell, or effects of tobacco.

When you smoke around me in a bar, you make a decision for both of us. Now, the will of the people has been enacted. A believer in the democratic process accepts rulings that go against them John. The dictatorial fascist is the one who disregards the democratic process and does whatever they want at the expense of others benefits.

It's so not a big deal to you in the scheme of things. I don't understand this anger at all. If I'm around an alcoholic, I restrict my freedom out of consideration for them, and choose not to drink. That is consideration. Postponing my enjoyment so that the health of another is not affected is no big deal.

Same with smoking. Take the minute to walk out the door, have your cig, then walk back in. It's no not a big deal mate.

[ 05-12-2003, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: This is side stepping the entire issue of FORCING someone to abide by rules in it's own place of ownership. Something using logic I disagree with entirely.

SO you're suggesting that a person should be allowed to rape, murder, molest, assault, abuse or rob another person if they're in a private place? That somehow rules don't apply simply because you're in a privately owned building?

What a bizzarre view. What is the purpose of laws Mord? Why protect the innocent from the harm another visits on them? That's what this is about. Protecting an innocent from the decisions of another.

I'm sure the guy that wants to enjoy raping a girl could get all upset about his freedom being restricted too. How dare the government Nazis tell him who he can and can't have his way with. It's his private property dammit. He can do what he likes right?

Isn't that what you're saying? Who gives a hoot what your action does to another. Right? Personal freedom overides the safety and health of the public right?

[ 05-12-2003, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Mordenheim]

Don't try that. Smoking is a legal thing? Do not use illegal matter to compare no matter how YOU disdain it.

Don't use word's like death, kill, to discuss second hand smoke unless YOU can prove it.

I am shocked you would even try to use such childish thinking to compare the use of a LEGAL product to a horrible crime.

Try again

Thanks

[ 05-12-2003, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Mordenheim ]

[Chewbacca]

http://www.jointogether.org/sa/news/...563129,00.html

snip- Currently, a Town Meeting-approved ordinance limits smoking in bars and restaurants in Framingham to restricted areas. The Board of Health ban prohibits smoking in bars and restaurants entirely. Last year, voters rejected the Board of Health's proposal to rescind the Town Meeting ordinance.

Looks like the town referendum has taken temporary precedence over the arbritary ruling of the health board here in the town I currently live in. I like the fact my favorite pub/poolhall here in Framingham has smoking and non-smoking areas. Freedom of choice is a Beautiful thing!

Perhaps letting each individual establishment decide is the fairest way to resolve the situation. It is a comprimise between a total ban and a total lack of regulation.

Can't we all just get along? [img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Lord Dracon]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Lord Dracon: Interesting fact If all the tobbaco crops in the world were replaced with grain (or some other food) then you could feed all the starving people in africa for about half a year. P.S. Can't really remember it accurately, but there's something for you to think about

And what AFTER that half year ? A lot of people would be angry, cause they can't smoke anymore, and the Africans will be back where they left off.

Your comment doesn't hold any water. What they REALLY need to do, is replace the governments of those countries, with leaders who CARE for their people, and don't keep everything to themselves.

But no... blame it on the smokers, they're the ones responsible for the hunger in Africa. They're all criminals i tell ya. [/QUOTE]I wasn't taking sides I was just stating an interesting fact. Anyway I think it was one and a half years you could feed them for.

[johnny]

Bardan, your link doesn't exactly make us much wiser, don't you think ? Just read what it says: he was BELIEVED to be a victim of passive smoking. That says it all, doesn't it ? As if non smokers can't get lungcancer.

That was no proof of death by secondhand smoke, try again.