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Old 08-22-2004, 08:44 AM   #11
Khazadman Risen
Manshoon
 

Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: The Glorious South
Age: 62
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Actually, almost everything in the Kerry resume is true. Never heard anuthing about his dual citizenship though. Sounds kind of far fetched to me. That should be the kind of thing that would keep one from being elected president.
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:58 AM   #12
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Felix The Assassin:
This link covers a more adequeate robust central "No Spin to the Left" as the direct link above does.
No, sorry the right is not central and Newsmax is as right-leaning as they get.

Quote:

Gives some good insight on both sides, about both sides.

.http://www.newsmax.com/hottopics/Sen_John_Kerry.shtml
No it doesn't. The link there as one-sided as the "1,000 reasons against Bush" site, only worst because it tries to pass itself of as a news service. It doesn't even address real issues more than half the time, but focuses on the contrived.
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:37 PM   #13
Cerek the Barbaric
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Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
I can only offer some countering information to a few of these areas, but I will do what I can to help shed a little extra light (and perspective) on these statistics.

Quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Came across the following, and I'm wondering about the truth behind it:


Resume' of
GEORGE W. BUSH
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20520



EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

Law Enforcement:


I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the
influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's
license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and
is not available.




Military:

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a
drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas
Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

I found documents that actually accounted for Bush's whereabouts during the supposed AWOL period when this issue first came up a couple of years ago, but no amount of Searching has succeeded in reproducing this document. It was the "Time Sheets" from the base in Texas and the one in Louisana, and it showed that the - while there had been a mixup and delay in delivering the Time Sheets from Texas to Louisiane, the approx. two weeks in question WERE accounted for by the National Guards own records.



College:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a cheerleader.

Al Gore (who Bush was running against when this statistic first came to light) ALSO had a "C" to "B-" average for his college career. I believe his overall GPA was slightly higher than Bush's (by only a few points), but Gore had actually made a "D" in a couple of individual classes, whereas Bush was a fairly consistant student with mostly "C's" and "B's".

One other note. A "C average" does NOT equal "failing". It just equals "average". And an article I saw a while back stated that some CEO's actually prefer a "C" student to a straight "A" student - as the latter is often someone who stayed "buried in the books" all the time and hasn't developed the same capacity to think "outside the box" as student's with lower averages. Many (not all, but many) straight "A" students have a hard time adapting or doing things that are not "by the book". The article went on to say that straight "A" students also didn't participate in as many extra-curricular activities, which limited their development of "people skills".



PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:


I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in
Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil
in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. I
bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land
using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our friends in the oil
industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.

No comment on his career in the oil business or as the owner of a ball team. I will note that you could probably find similar statistics on many other millionaires and their past business ventures.

As for Ken Lay, he stayed in the Lincoln Bedroom a total of 11 times during the 8 years that Clinton was President. Ken Lay isn't a "best friend" to George Bush, he is a "best friend" to whoever he felt would be most beneficial to helping him continue "business as usual" at Enron. And the collapse of Enron did NOT happen overnight. The dummy corporations and falsified accounting practices were all created during Clinton's Administration. The house of cards just managed to stay together until Bush became President.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:


I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston
replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in
American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my
father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing
by over 500,000 votes.

Complete Spin, though I know the die-hards will continue to spout it out. Bush did lose the "popular vote", but he WON the "electoral vote", which is all that is required to become President. He also is not the first President to "win" the office even though he "lost" the general election.

As for the Florida Returns, they were reported prematurely. The panhandle of Florida is in the Central Time Zone (instead of Eastern) and is predominantly Republican. Their polls were still open for another hour after CNN reported that Gore had "won" Florida (this information is directly from an IW member that lives in the panhandle). Another member of IW (and my former roommate in college) is also a resident of Florida and he agreed that the election wasn't nearly as "contested" as the media was making it out to be.




ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a
criminal record.

I kinda doubt the validity of this claim. The only "criminal record" that has been mentioned was his D.U.I. arrest several years before becoming President - and it was a one-time offense. Still, any straw to clutch is better than none.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over
one billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
Treasury.

I wasn't aware the U.S. had a surplus to spend. According to most accounts, we have had a deficit for the last several years.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in
any 12-month period.

It would depend on exaclty which "12 month period" these statistics refer to. If it was the first two "12-month periods", then these statistics are the result of Clinton policies, not Bush policies. If it is the last two 12-months, the argument gains a bit more validity (although still contains a lot of spin).

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
period.

See Above.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of
the U.S. stock market. In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans
lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

The President has no direct control over the stock market. That is regulated by the Federal Reserve and S.E.C. (IIRC). Alan Greenspan is the man that controls whether the stock market goes up or down, and he has been doing that for the last several Administrations (going all the way back to Reagan).

The stock market was also grossly over-inflated and experts had been predicting this huge "correction" for at least two years before Bush took office. What this statistic leaves out is that the stock market still did not "CRASH" (as it did back in the late 20's) and it has since began recovering from this "drop" (also known as an "adjustment" in financial circles).


I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice,
has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S.
President.

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the
most corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best
friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud
in U.S. History, Enron.

See above re:Ken Lay. He was a "best friend" to Clinton too, at least while he was President.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys
to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election
decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating
the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the
biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and
refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was
revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be
awarded government contracts.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any
President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S.
history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United
Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war"
detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any
President since the advent of television.

I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any
one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided
over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy ever for the U.S. after the World
Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated
country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

A partial truth, but still not exactly correct. Most of the "world community" are quick to say they hate George W. Bush, but do NOT apply that same hatred to the U.S. in general. It is just our leader they have issue with and they are quick to point out the the separation of feelings towards the President and those towards the American citizens.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering
the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did
so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens,
and the world community.

I question whether it was "against the will of the majority of U.S. citizens", but the rest of the statement is correct. The U.N. and world community preferred to leave Saddam Hussein in power (see how easy it is to "spin" the facts ).

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut
in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families in wartime.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of
Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster,"
a WMD.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden
to justice.

Clinton didn't capture him either...of course Clinton also didn't try nearly as hard as Bush, even though the U.S.S. Cole and several attacks on U.S. barracks occurred during his tenure. The only time Clinton "got serious" about seeking Osama bin Laden was immediately after "Lewinsky-Gate".


RECORDS AND REFERENCES:


All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's
library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt
companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended
regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public review.



PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004!



Does anyone have any idea how much, if any, of the above can be disproved or logically rebutted? I admit to my ignorance as to the veracity of the claims, and I'm curious if anyone knows for a fact what's true and what's not.
Those are the only comments and rebuttals I can offer with assurance. As mentioned above, Snopes.com is one of the best references for debunking such internet myths. They haven't had time to do a comprehensive analysis of the items contained in the resume', but offer a couple of links that can provide furhter insight and details to the information contained here.

Here is the link to the Snopes page about this --->
Bush Resume'

[ 08-23-2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:58 PM   #14
Oblivion437
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 17, 2002
Location: NY
Age: 37
Posts: 723
Quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Resume' of
GEORGE W. BUSH
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20520



EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:

Law Enforcement:


I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the
influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's
license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and
is not available.
He did what the law asked...That was the law in Kennebunkport Maine in 1976...Do they expect him to demand they draw and quarter him or something?

Also, they are implying that he's had some hand (or there's some conspiracy) in destroying information which might make him look bad. Furthermore they extrapolate on records that they haven't seen...

Quote:
Military:

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a
drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas
Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.
I take it these people know nothing about the National Guard...

Quote:
College:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a cheerleader.
You know, they bitch about his low C average (low, not C-, which doesn't look as angry on paper) while these unknown armchair warriors of the internet don't lay their cards bare, and then they insult whatever he did there that wasn't criminal but is vaguely ridiculous (certainly, the photo ops would make for good laughs) as some kind of serious point of contention.

Quote:
PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:


I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in
Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil
in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. I
bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land
using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our friends in the oil
industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.
His wasn't the only company in Texas that went bankrupt for lack of oil. The process of finding a well is still pretty much guess-work, but some science has been added so they don't have to dig around as much.

Since when was Enron in the oil business? Furthermore, was Ken Lay CEO of Enron at the time? I should think not...Lay is no longer CEO of Enron, and this is an attack of guilt by association. Trying to establish that he was slipped into power (opening the forum for vague comparisons to Hitler) in some way with no basis for such a claim (in fact, there's no citation on any of this) is tantamount to libel.

Quote:
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:


I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies,
making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
Citation? Please? I'm not throwing this at a fellow forum poster, I'm throwing this at the shmucks who conjured this crap from inner space.

Quote:
During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.
Not according to those who lived in Houston and LA at the time...Furthermore, while he was governer of Texas, was he also mayor of Houston?

Quote:
I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of
billions in borrowed money.
I'd like to see the source for this.

Quote:
I set the record for the most executions by any governor in
American history.
As opposed to Dukakis and Kerry, who furloughed rapists and murderers from prison.

Quote:
With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my
father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing
by over 500,000 votes.
Jesus H. Christ! Popular doesn't mean a damn thing. Electoral College district votes determine the winner. Bush wasn't the first. Furthermore, they pretty much project typical deskwarrior paranoia that it was some sort of insider corruption thing, again with no basis.

Quote:
ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a
criminal record.
Andrew Jackson murdered the husband of his first wife...

Quote:
I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over
one billion dollars per week.
Failing to name the countries results in not knowing that one was an immediate threat response.

While the other may have been aggressive, all given reasons for doing so have pretty much been rendered solid.

Quote:
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S.
Treasury.
Bullshit. Klin-Ton projected a surplus would emerge by 2003. That it never happened isn't *his* fault, it's *the other guy's* fault. There has never been a budget surplus since FDR.

Quote:
I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S.
history.
Yeah, well that's not adjusted for inflation for one, and for two, he's a bullshit Conservative, he's supposed to spend money.

Quote:
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in
any 12-month period.
As if he waged dictatorial powers over the economy, not to mention that Klin-Ton's chicken hatched from eggs he layed (in your stomach, just to remind you of something unpleasant, like tapeworm) back in the '90s, but didn't do so until after he left office. The most material effects of any President's long-term policies (few as Klin-Ton passed) come about after they leave office for the last time, and for good reason, idiots like these can then blame the next guy.

Quote:
I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month
period.
Is Bush two people, or three in this case?

Quote:
I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of
the U.S. stock market.
1929
Black Monday

Quote:
In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.
We're currently experiencing the fastest quarterly job growth in 20 years.

Quote:
I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any
administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice,
has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.
Yes, because only the poor are fit to lead.

Quote:
I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S.
President.
This is important?

Quote:
I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the
most corporate campaign donations.
Oh yeah, he received all his donations from 700 people right? Keep propping up the Moore lie, it's not like anyone objective takes him seriously about anything anyways...

Besides, it's not like John "I stand up to Special Interests" Kerry has ever turned down their money.

Quote:
My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best
friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud
in U.S. History, Enron.
Did Bush preside over this fraud, which occured after he was elected mind you? Not to mention the ridiculous continued application of guilt-by-association attacks. Besides, Ken Lay knew a hell of a lot less about the fraud than was said. It turns out he was quite ignorant about many of the large details of his operations...

Quote:
My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys
to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election
decision.
I'd like some proof of this, and some point to it.

Quote:
I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against
investigation or prosecution.
How so?

Quote:
More time and money was spent investigating
the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the
biggest corporate rip-offs in history.
Which included, all by Komrade Klin-Ton, Treason, perjury, adultery (not a crime), and we can't forget the whole selling missile secrets to the Chinese for his own personal profit, or creating a rift in the key nexus of our intelligence network (domestic and international) and then throwing money at it to look good, to avoid prosecution. That's like ripping half the boards off a ship at high sea, and then yelling at the water to not come in.

Quote:
I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and
refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was
revealed.
Did he have to? Did he have the power to?

Quote:
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
Implying involvement, without establishing it.

Quote:
I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be
awarded government contracts.
They did their time...Their debt to society is supposed to be paid, certainly John Kerry and his boss Mike Dukakis both thought they'd done enough before they'd even done it.

Quote:
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any
President in U.S. history.
Would those be Misdemeanor or Felony convictions?

Quote:
I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.
Tennessee Valley Authority, Central Intelligence Agency, Intelligence oversight Committee...

Quote:
I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S.
history.
Did we sign them all? And considering some of the people we were offending by these breaks, I frankly don't care. Furthermore, if those treaties obligations put him in a position to do detriment (or ignore an impending detriment) to the US or its interests, he would be derelicting his duties as president.

Quote:
I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United
Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.
These klowns do know who is on the UN Human Rights Commission, right?

Quote:
I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.
We're a sovereign nation, why should we listen to the rest of the world about our policies? Certainly, our obligations to such a court come second to our obligations to the Constitution and the people of the US.

Quote:
I refused to allow inspector's access to U.S. "prisoners of war"
detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.
Considering terrorists aren't protected by the Geneva Convention...

Quote:
I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations
election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).
So someone showed some backbone to that not-a-joke joke organization?

Quote:
I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any
President since the advent of television.
What, do they need to come up with more cheap grammar-attacks? Who said a president had to give press conferences?

Quote:
I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any
one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided
over the worst security failure in U.S. history.
Considering what vacation is to a president, and that the information that couldn't be put together couldn't be put together because of Klin-Ton's necessitated act of evasion...

Quote:
I garnered the most sympathy ever for the U.S. after the World
Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated
country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.
According to whom? These 'mosts' are wholly invented of course, and I can name a few bigger, real diplomatic blunders...

Quote:
I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to
simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering
the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.
Who keeps these records, where did they find them, and who the hell cares?

Quote:
I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked,
pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did
so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens,
and the world community.
Are they citing random one-sided polls for the majority of US citizens, do they not know that there was a coalition involved in going into the US? That we did invade Hawaii? That the world community's opinions on our interests is not a considered factor in the decision making process?

Quote:
I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut
in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families in wartime.
Well, this does piss me off...At least they got something right.

Quote:
In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for
attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.
Patently false.

Quote:
I am the first President in history to have a majority of
Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
security.
As if European opinion actually matters in making the decision at the polls.

Quote:
I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster,"
a WMD.
Development that has been going on since the mid-'50's...

Quote:
I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden
to justice.
Yes, because hunting a mountain-man down in his mountains, when he may well have made his flight well before we got to hunting him down, is such an easy thing to do.

Quote:
RECORDS AND REFERENCES:


All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's
library, sealed and unavailable for public view.
Are they a matter of public record, or are they just talking about one set? Or are they trying to make the claim that every copy of every newspaper article, op-ed piece, online journal and news entry, public and private record is now in Bush Sr.'s possession? Where does he fit it all?

Quote:
All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended
regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
public review.
Oooh! Sealed in secrecy! Invisible men behind the sun and hobgoblins are coming out to eat our children!

Quote:
PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004!
Thanks, but no thanks. Mr. Badnarik is down-the-line in agreement with me, so I'm voting his way.

Quote:
Does anyone have any idea how much, if any, of the above can be disproved or logically rebutted? I admit to my ignorance as to the veracity of the claims, and I'm curious if anyone knows for a fact what's true and what's not.
Considering that if any of it's true, it's still unsupported fluff, not much to consider...

I can think of a really good reason to re-elect Bush, if you're not a Republican:

The Republicans won't have anyone to run who can stand up to the Poodle or to the Feminazi in 2008.
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Old 08-23-2004, 03:32 PM   #15
Magness
Quintesson
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Manchester, NH, USA
Posts: 1,025
Oblivion, that's such a long reply, I cannot begin to read it all.

However, I think that I did come across one error. IIRC, there was a US budget surplus more recent than FDR (not even sure if FDR had a surplus, at that). IIRC, Richard Nixon had one budget surplus during his tenure. I'm not aware of any specific effort to generate a surplus. I think that it may have just been some sort of spike in tax revenues during a particularly strong economic year.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:55 PM   #16
Hank Parsons
Zhentarim Guard
 

Join Date: February 14, 2004
Location: Georgia
Age: 48
Posts: 357
Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
Write in Bill Clinton.
I wonder how many ppl actually do that? Was there a count of Clinton votes from 2000?
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Old 08-23-2004, 07:04 PM   #17
Absynthe
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Well, thanks for all the responses, especially the ones that weren't more of the "I know you are but what am I?" crapola.
It's interesting to note that the responses in politically-themed posts run so similar in nearly every forum, with the rare reasoned attempts to address the issue, some instant knee-jerk rebuttals, the occasional poster who completely misses the point, and the non-sequitors that we just can't seem to live without.
Why is it that a subject so critical to us all gets treated so shabbily, is given such short shrift? Questions that should be of grave concern are passed over in favor of sound bites and sensational accusations, thoughtful debate crumbles under name-calling and flame-baiting. Have we lost our perspective on politics, dizzy from all the spinning of an election year, or are we just becoming numb to the whole show, content with our bread and circuses?
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Old 08-23-2004, 07:39 PM   #18
Djinn Raffo
Ra
 

Join Date: March 11, 2001
Location: Ant Hill
Age: 49
Posts: 2,397
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Parsons:
quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
Write in Bill Clinton.
I wonder how many ppl actually do that? Was there a count of Clinton votes from 2000? [/QUOTE]I don't know... I'm not even American.
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Old 08-23-2004, 07:45 PM   #19
Magness
Quintesson
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Manchester, NH, USA
Posts: 1,025
Wouldn't matter how may Clinton write-ins there were. He simply cannot ever become president again without a change to the Constitution.
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:53 PM   #20
Cerek the Barbaric
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Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally posted by Absynthe:
Well, thanks for all the responses, especially the ones that weren't more of the "I know you are but what am I?" crapola.
It's interesting to note that the responses in politically-themed posts run so similar in nearly every forum, with the rare reasoned attempts to address the issue, some instant knee-jerk rebuttals, the occasional poster who completely misses the point, and the non-sequitors that we just can't seem to live without.
Why is it that a subject so critical to us all gets treated so shabbily, is given such short shrift? Questions that should be of grave concern are passed over in favor of sound bites and sensational accusations, thoughtful debate crumbles under name-calling and flame-baiting. Have we lost our perspective on politics, dizzy from all the spinning of an election year, or are we just becoming numb to the whole show, content with our bread and circuses?
For one thing, an opening post that is so obviously slanted and misleading as the one in this thread isn't very likely spark an honost and civil debate - even though there are some serious issues buried within the content worthy of discussion.

It's kinda like me opening with a post calling the Mariners a bunch of lazy, worthless, irresponsible scum bums - then wondering why you don't want to discuss the issue of how horribly commercialized professional baseball (and other sports) has become.

For instance, I fully agree (and have often stated on this very forum), that Bush's biggest flaw is his complete lack of diplomacy. We did have global sympathy and support on 9/12/2001 - and Bush did manage to piss the vast majority of that goodwill and global community spirit away in less than 18 months. Like I said before, that has got to be some kind of record (and not a very good one).

But many of the assertions in the resume' are either blantantly false or grossly misleading. Yeah, it's done mostly "tongue-in-cheek", but it is still going to provoke strong defensive reactions from those that support or like Bush.

If you want a serious and thought-provoking discussion, then you need to find a source that presents the issues in a more even-handed and/or neutral manner.
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