Prisoners rights...your thoughts.

[Timber Loftis]

Someone posted:
"People that commit crime are either driven to it by their circumstances, desperation (if I used the right word... I mean that they're poor, etc.) or they're ill and need to be made better."

I don't know whether this makes me want to [img]graemlins/1puke.gif[/img] or [img]graemlins/bonghit.gif[/img] and [img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img]

Regardless, it's a naive view. Ask those 2 10-year-olds on trial for killing their folks. Ask the Menendez Bros. Hell, ask Don King, who is not sick, poor, or mistreated, yet has literally gotten away with murder. People do bad things for the reasons you stated, but they also do them for greed. And because they think they can get away with it.

As for those who have stated the purpose of prisons is punishment - you are clearly wrong. The first thing a crim law course will teach you is that the big purposes for crime & punishment are plural: (1)rehabilitation/remediation, (2) removal from society for safety, (3) encouraging proper bahavior in others, and [lastly] (4) vengeance / punitive.

Some of our posters are from overseas. In some countries, #4 above is not seen as a valid reason to punish. Which is exactly the very reason why EU countries must abolish the death penalty to join the EU. And there are good points to this reasoning - the primary one being that the wrongdoers actions do not give you permission to undertake wrong actions. If actions are wrong, they are wrong - period.

I'm not saying I agree totally with that view - but I do want to point out that there are other ways to view crime and punishment on this planet. And I must say that on this issue, Americans are very hard-pressed to understand the simple logic of this particular view.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I'm not saying I agree totally with that view - but I do want to point out that there are other ways to view crime and punishment on this planet. And I must say that on this issue, Americans are very hard-pressed to understand the simple logic of this particular view.[/QB]

Hmmm, maybe it’s a cultural thing.
When the death penalty in Britain was abolished all sorts of dire things ere predicted and every time there was an increase in crime or whatever, people would cry for it to be brought back.
But when I was born, It had already been abolished, and I consider it a unthinkable barbarity.
And of course such materials and peoples as I have encountered and learnt from, have considered prison something to rehabilitate people, not as a punishment, and something which ideally should be avoided wherever possible.

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: And of course such materials and peoples as I have encountered and learnt from, have considered prison something to rehabilitate people, not as a punishment, and something which ideally should be avoided wherever possible.

That's where America differs in the worst kinds of ways as far as prisons are concerned. With our anal approach to the constitution, prisons are more like health spas, private hotels and vacation get-aways for career criminals.
People who are too lazy to accept rehabilitation and become a part of society (as in get a job and be responsible) can commit minor offenses that will keep them in for lengths of time every time (and they will go to great lengths to get caught). Shelter from the elements, cable television, VCR's & movies, AC/heat, a bed, 3 square meals a day, hygenic facilities, even clean clothing and shoes...books, internet access, weight rooms, free medical and dental benefits...stuff people on the outside have to pay money for to have themselves...stuff they pay for with the working people's taxes. Its not right.

Originally posted by Moni: That's where America differs in the worst kinds of ways as far as prisons are concerned. With our anal approach to the constitution, prisons are more like health spas, private hotels and vacation get-aways for career criminals. People who are too lazy to accept rehabilitation and become a part of society (as in get a job and be responsible) can commit minor offenses that will keep them in for lengths of time every time (and they will go to great lengths to get caught). Shelter from the elements, cable television, VCR's & movies, AC/heat, a bed, 3 square meals a day, hygenic facilities, even clean clothing and shoes...books, internet access, weight rooms, free medical and dental benefits...stuff people on the outside have to pay money for to have themselves...stuff they pay for with the working people's taxes. Its not right.

Hard to believe that you and I can be so wide apart on some issues and yet so close in others [img]smile.gif[/img] Dang, too bad you are a cat person

Originally posted by MagiK: Hard to believe that you and I can be so wide apart on some issues and yet so close in others [img]smile.gif[/img] Dang, too bad you are a cat person

LOL its not so much that I am a cat person, its that I am a sucker for sick & homeless babes LOL!
Don't forget, I have 4 dogs too! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Megabot]

Originally posted by Moni: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Hard to believe that you and I can be so wide apart on some issues and yet so close in others [img]smile.gif[/img] Dang, too bad you are a cat person

LOL its not so much that I am a cat person, its that I am a sucker for sick & homeless babes LOL!
Don't forget, I have 4 dogs too! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]And dont forget my lovly "Sugar" Moni give here something nice to eat this day from me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Moni: LOL its not so much that I am a cat person, its that I am a sucker for sick & homeless babes LOL! Don't forget, I have 4 dogs too! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

You are? I think (cough) (cough) I may be comning down with something....now if I can arrange to get evicted.....
[ 09-15-2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by Megabot: And dont forget my lovly "Sugar" Moni give here something nice to eat this day from me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I will Megabot! I think I have one chewy left and she likes them the most so she'll get it today. [img]smile.gif[/img]
I'll give her a little kiss on the head from you too. She just loves those!

MagiK,
ROFL! Just remember they are all here! If you end up needing a place to stay you are welcome but the only place free of animal traffic around here is the garage! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Lox]

I have seen a couple posts saying that prison is too cooshy (is that a word, and is it spelled right?) for prisoner; that we give them too many good things (tv, weight rooms, food). Myself, I have a very dark image of prison. Sure you may get clean clothes and access to the internet, but you also have gangs fighting for turf, guys getting shivved in the shower etc. Now I have no first hand experience (thank god) to back this up with, but I wonder if those of you who hold the "too cooshy" view have experience/evidence to back your view up. Does anyone here work in a prison and know what it is really like? How different is max security from min security? I know the Hollywood movies exagerate, but documentaries (which can still be slanted, but have to be a little more accurate than a complete fiction) I've seen are still pretty scary.

Even assuming the cooshy view is accurate, I think I'd rather have my freedom.

[Timber Loftis]

Moni, I think you misunderstand Dramnik when he says:

"And of course such materials and peoples as I have encountered and learnt from, have considered prison something to rehabilitate people, not as a punishment, and something which ideally should be avoided wherever possible."

Your reply post mentions health spa-type prisons. I think when Dramnik says prison is to "be avoided whenever possible," he means that we as a society should avoid using prison whenever possible. I don't think he means that prison in UK is so bad that everyone seeks to avoid it.

'natch