US Senate approves debt limit increase

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The National Debt clock in New York was stopped in 2000, 5 years after the real estate mogul who put it up had died.

This is a shame, it's one of the thing that marked me the most on my visit to New York.

[Djinn Raffo]

The myth of the Republicans being the party of fiscal responsibility is officially dead.

[Yorick]

Worst fiscal turnaround in US history.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobus...heater234.html

[Yorick]

Cool.

[Dreamer128]

I rather like this one
http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view/1024_small.shtml
If parents acted like the Bush administration.. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by John D Harris: While everybody is crying about the USA's Fed Budget deficit answer me this what is the the percentage of the GDP is the budget deficit of the USA? what is the same for let's say France? or Germany? I beleive you'll find they are about the same percentage.(roughly 3.5-3.6%, see what a nice guy I am I'll even give you the answers, now go forth and try to prove me wrong

What on earth has that got to do with it?

John... would you prefer to have 10% of one million dollars, or have 10% of ten dollars?
Now, would you prefer to be in debt 10% of one million dollars, or 10% of ten dollars?

I don't see how you can use the size of the GDP as some sort of defense. Debt is debt. As Timber so succinclty put it, if banks won't lend you money, you're screwed. Who would lend the USA money? Where is that $800 billion coming from? The debt keeps growing. Where will this stop?

I think you're dreaming John. You've got your head in the sand on this. A depression can put you out of work, make you savings meaningless, and cause you to lose your house. It's not a good legacy to leave your kids.

The party and president you voted for have scewed up the country and you're to proud or one-eyed to see the damage. Time to be a man and realise you made a mistake. Time for example, to realise the war in Iraq needs to stop now - even simply to save money.

There's no point in blindly ranting about how there is no problem. [/QUOTE]Yorick, nobody in their right mind would choose 10% of $10 over 10% of $1,000,000! Now while you are complaining about the total of what the US debt for last year. Explain this to me, why do the same people that complain about the amount of the US debt, also say that the rich can pay more in taxes because they can afford them since they make so much money? Why is there a standard that say a person who has lots of money can afford more a higher percent, but a country that has more money can't? Just how does that work? If the percentage of GDP for yearly debt for "A" is 3.5% (for a total of $30,000,000,000 deficit) and the percentage of GDP for "B" is also 3.5% (for a total of $800,000,000,000 deficit) You tell me who will be more likely to get a loan the middle class "A" or the wealthy "B"? Look around in the real world do you know any rich people, is it easier for them to get loans or for you?

Now you'll just have to deal with the fact I'm not tak'n any advice from someone that makes a point using one position to start with as your support, then switch positions when pressed to another position of support for your point when your first is questioned. Now let's do a manhood check here, I've already stated what I believe will happen in the next 4 years with the economy, and you have stated something about a depression. Well would you be willing to put some money on it?

Now I have stated many times the USA needs to get the debt under control, in fact I've been harsher then all the rest of you people combinded! I say they got no balls in Washington D.C. when it comes to the budget. I question their manhood for real. I went so far as to say when it came to the budget Ronald Reagan didn't have the balls to do the right thing.I beleive RR was the best President we have had in my lifetime! I also have said that Bill Cliton did have the balls, and I believe he was the second worst President we have had in my lifetime! I just don't understand I read all kinds of happy horse manure about how big and bad the USA is and that kind of hot monkey sex crap. Here comes a tailor made problem to make the big bad USA fall, but what does everybody seem to be doing? Why that would be complaining about what would happen if the USA falls! Why complain you'll get what you want the big bad USA to get it's come-up-ence!!! The complaints come because exactly as I have also stated the USA is the world's largest consumer if we fall the rest of the world falls! When the USA's economy coughs the rest of the worlds economies come down with a cold or the flu. Personaly I'm thankful to be in a country that just coughs vs. a country that comes down with a cold. Now if I was in a country that comes down with a cold I'd be aware of that and take steps personaly to lessen the effect on me and my family, but that's just me. You people can complain all you want it doesn't make a tinker's damn in "Hale". The USA doesn't need to be take'n economic advice from the rest of the world! When their economies have the track record we the USA has then we'll listen. Until then piss'n'moun all you want, we'll say "Hmmmm" and continue to make more money and grow stronger.

Remember the TRUE greatness of a country can be measured by the number of people that want to get into it! I see the World beating a path to get into the USA! If the USA is so bad why do they come? Because this is the land of opportunity, you can rise as far as you are willing to work to get too!

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Size of economies don't matter -- if banks won't lend you money to float your debt you go bankrupt. We could compare the US National debt to China's number of mountains, or the EU's number of cobblestone streets, or Cairo's cab drivers -- for all the relation it bears to GDP. Anyway, I think you'll find that the countries of Europe are running $30 billion Euro debt or less each -- on the high end. Now, I *think* that is annual debt, not total debt. The National Debt clock in New York was stopped in 2000, 5 years after the real estate mogul who put it up had died. In its final moments, the sign read: "Our national debt: $5,676,989,904,887. Your family share: $73,733." Now that debt has shot from $5.6Tn to $7.5Tn. You may not be suffering a recession now, but your children will pay for this foolishness. We can't borrow from German and French banks anymore -- we're not worth the risk, and we never pay. Chinese and Japanese banks currently have us on a short lease. With the $500 Bn we pay annually just on interest -- just for the privilege of floating the loan -- we could fix social security and health care and triple spending on the environment. Or, we could all take a frikkin huge tax break. But no one in D.C. wants that. That usurps their Standard Operating Procedure -- which is to make sure everyone there gets just enough pork in their districts to remain an incumbent. Repubs and Dems agree, it's nice to take our money and spread it around. After promising to balance the budget, Congress decreased spending by 0.8% this year. They should be embarrassed. And so should you, for betraying every conservative value there is. Letting lawmakers vote in big money grabs and then vote to pork it out is the essential silver bullet that will kill a democracy. Democracies fail when the people figure out they can simply vote for who will give them the most money once elected. Democracies fail when the elected realize that to stay in power all they need do is sufficiently bribe their constituents.

No arguement here that Congress has added pork, and the Republican Congress needs to get their poop together. But it is Congress that needs to get their poop together, President Bush needs to grow some big fuzzy ones and tell them nothing over the rate inflation for an increase in the federal budget. Then Veto any budget sent by Congress that doesn't hold the buget to inflation, only exception is a national emergency. The best thing that came out of Clinton vetoing the budget was it showed the American people that the world didn't end, the sun still rose, people still got married, had children, and the NFL still played football. We don't need the gov't it needs us.

Now here's why a county's GDP matters, real life 101: Two people go to a bank to get loans for houses Person "A" makes $50,000 a year, person "B" makes $250,000 a year. Which one will get the loan for a $650,000 House? Person "A" has $1,850 in debt last year, person "B" has $9,250 in debt last year. $9,250 debt would destroy person "A" chance of getting a loan but not person "B".

A gov't gets it's money from the people in taxes, the more money the people make the more money the Gov't gets. That's why during the 80's the US Gov't DOUBLED the amount it took in from taxes. The problem was CongressTRIPLED the amount of the budget. If Congress holds the budget to inflation we will cut the deficit then the debt. The people will be making more money, more money will be TAKEN in taxes. We need to call our Congressmen and Senators and TELL them to hold spending to inflation.

Now here is another wrinkle Banks make money from loaning money, as long as the USA still makes the interest payments the banks will line-up to loan money. Banks LOVE those that only make the interest payments. Banks only like those that make the principle and interest. They hate those that make no payments. Come back and talk to me, about bankruptcy, when the USA doesn't make the payments. Personally I think it is stupid to just make interest payment and not pay the principle, but that's me. If I can, I pay extra on the principle so my interest payment drops, I don't like paying people for not doing anything but "here you go here's the money you wanted to borrow".

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Here, everybody -- Edumacate Yourself.

Thanks T.L. I really like these ones: "The Concord Coalition urged Congress and the Administration to use the larger-than-expected budget surplus for savings rather than rushing to spend it or give it away in tax cuts. While heartened by the good news, Concord warned that the $1.9 trillion 10-year surplus announced earlier today by the President is not new money, it is simply a new projection."

"The worst thing we could do would be to give it away before it ever materializes on a package of election-year goodies,” said Robert Bixby, Concord’s Executive Director."

Found at: http://www.concordcoalition.org/rele...626release.htm

[Yorick]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Explain this to me, why do the same people that complain about the amount of the US debt, also say that the rich can pay more in taxes because they can afford them since they make so much money? Why is there a standard that say a person who has lots of money can afford more a higher percent, but a country that has more money can't? Just how does that work? If the percentage of GDP for yearly debt for "A" is 3.5% (for a total of $30,000,000,000 deficit) and the percentage of GDP for "B" is also 3.5% (for a total of $800,000,000,000 deficit) You tell me who will be more likely to get a loan the middle class "A" or the wealthy "B"? Look around in the real world do you know any rich people, is it easier for them to get loans or for you?

Taxing income and going into debt are two different things. One is a percentage of a positive figure, the other is a negative figure. C'mon John, I have no idea what you're trying to do here. Twist logic for what reason?

Now you'll just have to deal with the fact I'm not tak'n any advice from someone that makes a point using one position to start with as your support, then switch positions when pressed to another position of support for your point when your first is questioned. Now let's do a manhood check here, I've already stated what I believe will happen in the next 4 years with the economy, and you have stated something about a depression. Well would you be willing to put some money on it?

I have no idea what you're saying here.
1.What points was I switching from and to?
2.What advice am I giving?
3.Why would I put money on whether there's a depression in America or not?
4.What has betting got to do with masculinity?

Now I have stated many times the USA needs to get the debt under control, in fact I've been harsher then all the rest of you people combinded! I say they got no balls in Washington D.C. when it comes to the budget. I question their manhood for real. I went so far as to say when it came to the budget Ronald Reagan didn't have the balls to do the right thing.I beleive RR was the best President we have had in my lifetime! I also have said that Bill Cliton did have the balls, and I believe he was the second worst President we have had in my lifetime!

See I don;t get that. So you're saying you don't regard balancing the books - the primary role of a government - as a factor in whether a government is sucessful or not? What are your criterea? Charisma and tough talk with the commies?

I just don't understand I read all kinds of happy horse manure about how big and bad the USA is and that kind of hot monkey sex crap. Here comes a tailor made problem to make the big bad USA fall, but what does everybody seem to be doing? Why that would be complaining about what would happen if the USA falls! Why complain you'll get what you want the big bad USA to get it's come-up-ence!!!

You've seriously misread me, misunderstood my position on, or love for America if you're believing for one second I would want disaster to befall America. Get real John. You're being ridiculous. Criticism is not a lack of love or a desire for woe. Rather the criticism is to avoid woe. Surely this is obvious. I see that America has serious problems. Because I care about the country and the people in it is why I would like to see those problems addressed. Why cdomment otherwise.

I think you need to read my posts again with this in mind. It's a serious misconception on your part if you're walking away thinking this.

The complaints come because exactly as I have also stated the USA is the world's largest consumer if we fall the rest of the world falls!

India and China are larger consumers, with 2 billion people. The power of the American dollar is what makes selling products in the USA so lucrative. With a weak dollar, this gets negated quite considerably John.

Secondly, the rest of the world will not fall as per the last US depression. The European economy hasn't been tied to the US economy for decades.
It has a stronger dollar, more people, and a powerful economic base.

When the USA's economy coughs the rest of the worlds economies come down with a cold or the flu.

This hasn't been true for decades

Personaly I'm thankful to be in a country that just coughs vs. a country that comes down with a cold. Now if I was in a country that comes down with a cold I'd be aware of that and take steps personaly to lessen the effect on me and my family, but that's just me. You people can complain all you want it doesn't make a tinker's damn in "Hale". The USA doesn't need to be take'n economic advice from the rest of the world! When their economies have the track record we the USA has then we'll listen. Until then piss'n'moun all you want, we'll say "Hmmmm" and continue to make more money and grow stronger.

You might want to check out this history of HUBRIS. You might want to also check out how many of the worlds preeminent nations have crashed.
Where is the British Empire, where is the Spanish Empire, the Russian, Persian, Roman, Mongolian, Manchu, Ottoman or Macedonian Empires?

Check out the little law of gravity too. What goes up comes down.

The Ancient Egyptian society was top of the world for a couple of thousand years John. That's a pretty amazing track record that leaves Americas short time at the top to shame. Would you take advice from them? What about Britain. The finest administrators the world has yet seen? From them? No? Americas 60 year ascendency means it can do no wrong? 60 years is a speck in human history John. Don't be fooling yourself.

Remember the TRUE greatness of a country can be measured by the number of people that want to get into it! I see the World beating a path to get into the USA! If the USA is so bad why do they come? Because this is the land of opportunity, you can rise as far as you are willing to work to get too!

I beg to differ. Immigration is an indicator of economic conditions, location, and immigration policy. People beat down a path to Australia's door also. To the point Australia had to shut down immigration. Americans want to go there John. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to proclaim Australia as the greatest nation simply because countless Vitenamese boat refugees try and get in each year.

You also forget immigration into Europe is really really high. Take a visit over there and check it out. Muslims in France, Turks and Kurds in Sweden. Switzerland is a closed shop. Immigration is not the indicator you think it is.

Make no mistake, America is a great country. But it's neither impervious to hubristic collapse, nor any better or worse than much of the rest of this fantastic planet we've been given.