Believe in Life after Death?

[caleb]

Uhhhh im pretty sure god doesnt "demand" worship...just that you respect his rules. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and all that animal sacrifice and worship crap just demeans his sacrifice.....or something like that . Hell ziroc can lay down some holy vengeance when you dont respect his rules while your on his creation. Hey yorick a fellow irish christian named steven wanted to tell ya something "god says hell get me out of this mess but hes pretty sure your f****d!!" and steven also has something to say to non believers expecting miracles to prove gods existence and think their better then him "this cant be god im prettier than this man.....God is seven feet tall yes ive heard kills men by the hundreds and if he were here he would consume the heathens with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse" AHAHAHHAAHA TO MUCH BRAVEHEART CORRUPTS THE MIND!!!!


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Welcome to hell.

[This message has been edited by caleb (edited 05-20-2001).]

[Jerome]

Originally posted by Lady Avalon: How many of you believe that your soul passes on to the other side and you have the option of being reborn again (into a different body of course)? What do you believe happens after you die?

After we die, we lose conciousness and cease to live, while our bodies slowly decay. As is my belief anyway.



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My hopes lie dashed,
Crushed from high above,
My dreams lie shattered, my heart broken,
A casulty on a battlefield called love.

[AzureWolf]

Just my humble opinion I am an total science person believing that the soul is just a conciousness that is a function of the brain and is an explanation that a lot of people use to explain the feelings and emotions they get from hormones and other chemical reactions in their body. And to the topic of Jesus, yes I believe that he was a man that existed BUT I also believe he was just a very charasmatic man who used his powerful personality to influence people and the whole lot of thing about him being a prophet or god is just a load of BS!
not trying to offend anyonme just my opinion.

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

[Yorick]

First of all guys, "Worship" means giving worth to something. Worth-ship.
A Christian worships purely by living a life that reflects the love of God, or by seeing a cool sunset and thanking God for it, or creating a song/painting/dance and thanking him for the ability and means to achieve it. I have no problem giving worship to he that has given so much, as it could be taken from me at any stage. I don't need to lose what I have to appreciate it.

Fjlotsdale, I see a pretty compassionate God in the old testament.

God sends Jonah to tell Nineveh he's going to destroy them because of their bullshit/crap/evil. Despite running Jonah ends up delivering his message of doom. After they "repent" God shows mercy and doesn't destroy Nineveh

Gods people the Hebrews for whom he show much love and generosity on continually flirt with the fertility cults of the region - Ashera poles and Baal worship - yet after leaving them to deal with consequences of living alone, he sends a deliverer to rescue them. Time and time again this cycle is repeated.

How many of us when we see the mees and crap humanity are capable of, think we are a curse on the planet that should be removed? I've read posts from many who state this. I continually prefer to look at the beauty and love that humanity is capable of, but in the light of the crap, God deciding enough is enough on more than one occasion is perfectly understandable. He shows mercy after mercy though, and even ends up becoming human himself. How is this a monster?

Do you allow for bias in a writer from the old testament? Any writer has personal bias, and as I said the bible is considered the "inspired word of God" and is as such written by humans. There are a lot of strange things in the old testament that taken out of context can seem pretty bizzarre. The BIG PICTURE ends up being the more important thing.

Also, there are terrible evils commited by men of God that highlight that no-one meets the criteria of perfection, and so needs Jesus Christ.
Even David the superking of Israel sends a loyal soldier to his death so he can get the guys wife. The message there is that God accepts the genuine repentance of David who had a pretty close walk with God. The consequence though was that he couldn't build the temple because of the blood on his hands.

You mentioned Job before. Job to me is an inspiring story because despite the crap he holds on and ends up with more than what he had before. Yes there are some strange theological implications in some of the story that many of us have differing interpretations of, but that is the beauty of the bible.

All of us have a differing perspective because of where we come from. As I was mentioning in another thread, the absolute truth in a situation exists, but by enabling the possibility of different interpretations, it means people who have an obstacle in their way can still see Christ.

I don't believe in eternal hell/torment for example.

This is an anathaema to many Christians, but I don't find anything that points to eternal torment. I see destruction mentioned in 2 Peter, I see a punishment of eternal consequence in Revealation. I see that Jesus offers eternal life.

Life = awareness. What is the opposite? Eternal unlife? No, I see it as cessation of awareness, oblivion - ironically the Buddhist Nirvana.

Rather than tossing out the baby (Jesus) with the bathwater (Hell) I investigated a genuine but little known biblical interpretation that keeps me "in the faith". I could not reconcile what I knew of a loving God who has displayed such love throughout creation and in the bible with one who would willingly create millions to eternal torment.

The God I see in the bible and in creation is a God of extreme generosity, love, compassion, and grace.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!


[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 05-20-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by CyberPixie: I've been reading this thread for quite a while but never really felt the need to post. But now...I think I need to post because it will be cathartic. Friday morning (5/18), two of my very close friends died in a car accident. I have been a mess since I found out (I was on the phone with one of my friend's brothers when the police confirmed that my two friends were deceased). I worked with both of these friends, and our workplace brought in a counselor on Friday afternoon to be there for any of us to talk to if we needed it. A friend and I went in to talk with him at the same time (the two that have passed were the other half of our "four musketeers" that were always together). He asked us both what we believe happens after death. Being a Christian minister, I think I rather threw him for a loop when I told him my beliefs, but he took it all in stride and helped me to see that there is hope in my beliefs. So now...I want to share this. I believe my friends are still out there...their souls are still with us even if their bodies aren't. Someday, they will be reborn into new bodies to touch more lives as they have touched mine. Or maybe they will have fulfilled their purpose or reached their full potential, and their souls will merge with the lifeforce that is a part of everything, the lifeforce that I view as Goddess/God, or whichever you prefer. I have always believed this, and now, it does bring me comfort to realize my friends are still with me, even if I can't necessarily see them, hug them, or talk directly with them. I can't explain why I believe this, but it is what feels natural and right for me. I know this isn't the most popular belief, but I hope you will all respect my right to believe this and my need to share it. I know my friends would/do respect my beliefs, even if they don't agree, and that's why they will always be so special to me.

Cyberpixie I am so sorry to hear of your loss. My heart goes out to you and I wish you well in the face of such a loss.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by caleb: Hey yorick a fellow irish christian named steven wanted to tell ya something "god says hell get me out of this mess but hes pretty sure your f****d!!" and steven also has something to say to non believers expecting miracles to prove gods existence and think their better then him "this cant be god im prettier than this man.....God is seven feet tall yes ive heard kills men by the hundreds and if he were here he would consume the heathens with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse" AHAHAHHAAHA TO MUCH BRAVEHEART CORRUPTS THE MIND!!!!

??? Say again? What the hell are you saying here Caleb? Is this Steven insulting me? Please post again in English

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: First of all guys, "Worship" means giving worth to something. Worth-ship. Fjlotsdale, I see a pretty compassionate God in the old testament. Also, there are terrible evils commited by men of God that highlight that no-one meets the criteria of perfection, and so needs Jesus Christ. Even David the superking of Israel sends a loyal soldier to his death so he can get the guys wife. The message there is that God accepts the genuine repentance of David who had a pretty close walk with God. The consequence though was that he couldn't build the temple because of the blood on his hands. I don't believe in eternal hell/torment for example. The God I see in the bible and in creation is a God of extreme generosity, love, compassion, and grace.

Ok Yorick this is a long one, and deserves a long response, but I’m cutting down to basic points to keep it shorter.
Last point first:

Hell:
Yeah, I pretty well agree. The bible NEVER mentions hell as a place of eternal torment. The opposite of life is death, not torment. Job mentions ‘going down into hell’, but god would not have condemned such a faithful man to eternal torment; and it is evident from the context that he simply meant the grave.
Bible does mention a place called Ge’henna as a place of everlasting fire, but it is commonly accepted that the term related to the valley of that name outside Jerusalem where the refuse – including the bodies of criminals – were burned, and where the fires were always kept burning. It was the Catholic church, by adopting pagan ideas of eternal torment, that introduced the concept of a hell of eternal torment to Christianity.
But the bible DOES promise ETERNAL DEATH as a consequence of non-compliance with god’s requirements. Among other’s, the bible book of Jeremiah, speaking of ‘the last days’ makes that quite clear. It speaks of the dead SLAIN BY GOD as covering the face of the earth (Jeremiah 25:32, 33) and the book of Revelation confirms that in chapter 19 (as well as other places).

Gods kindness in the face of the repeated failures of his people to follow his commandments:
Yes. No argument with that. The cases you mention prove your point. And the ‘foreigners’ he acted against had some pretty nasty practices, like burning their children in the Baal fires. (but I consider god pretty hypocritical in this as you will see later in the post)
As for the Ninevites, yeah, he let them off for a while. But only for a while! Only while they were repentant. (incidentally, did you notice that god seems to overlook the insincerity of the repentance of many people? They would repent to save their skins, then, when it was safe, they went back to their old ways.) Anyway, that whole exercise with Jonah (IMO) was for Jonah to learn a lesson – which he signally failed to do, incidentally!
David, however REPENTED. Genuinely. As did other’s god was merciful towards. HE NEVER LET OFF anyone who was NOT repentant, however, and who did NOT change their ways. So thinking that you can depend on god’s mercy whatever you do is just c**p. The books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Revelation and others make that QUITE clear, lol!

Worship:
That might be the meaning of the word, Yorick, but that AIN’T the way it is used. And it is the way it is used that I object to. It is used to mean ‘bowing down to’ ‘adoration’ - the inferior kow-towing to the superior. OK. A creator is superior to the creation. Fine.
But if YOU have made something, you spend time admiring it. You do not allow it get damaged if it is within your power to protect it. You test it, yes, to see if it fit for your purpose, and if it is not, you modify it ‘til it is. You do not expect what you have made to GIVE YOU BACK ANYTHING AT ALL, except pleasure, and the fulfilment of its purpose. If it fails of its purpose, and cannot be modified, you throw it out.
But what about your children? Do you expect them to worship you, in any sense of the word? Of course not! You can earn respect, but cannot demand it. You can demand obedience, when the child is young, but you should be very happy if you get it! Would you KILL your children if they refused to obey you?
We are called ‘the children of god’ in the bible… God, therefore has to EARN our respect. And the human family knows enough now to be considered a disobedient early teenager – and according to the bible, god is going to kill most of us off because of it… (see the scriptures cited above).

I am not trying to denigrate anyone’s belief in their god – in fact, if people genuinely believe, and practice their religion with a good heart, and tolerance, then I consider them worthy of admiration.
But I cannot share your faith. I do not like your god.
But Jesus was fine! Not like the bible god at all, (except in the book of Revelation which was written by a MAN called John!)

Regards

Fljotsdale

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: But if YOU have made something, you spend time admiring it. You do not allow it get damaged if it is within your power to protect it. You test it, yes, to see if it fit for your purpose, and if it is not, you modify it ‘til it is. You do not expect what you have made to GIVE YOU BACK ANYTHING AT ALL, except pleasure, and the fulfilment of its purpose. If it fails of its purpose, and cannot be modified, you throw it out. But what about your children? Do you expect them to worship you, in any sense of the word? Of course not! You can earn respect, but cannot demand it. You can demand obedience, when the child is young, but you should be very happy if you get it! Would you KILL your children if they refused to obey you? We are called ‘the children of god’ in the bible… God, therefore has to EARN our respect. And the human family knows enough now to be considered a disobedient early teenager – and according to the bible, god is going to kill most of us off because of it… (see the scriptures cited above). Regards Fljotsdale

Fjlostdale, God doesn't demand anything. We have been given free will to do anything we want, including rejecting God, destroying the perfect four dimensional artwork he created, and each other. I rather think it was a huge thing to give us the power to destroy that which he has made, and it must grieve him incredibly when we kill his creations that he has poured so much into. The strength in allowing this is something I don't have, and something he has often wrestled with humself it seems (the flood, the said Nineveh etc).

I don't think you know the God that I am referring to enough to dislike him. The characteristics of Jesus you are referring to I see in God, as I see the two as one. Through Jesus, I CAN KNOW GOD and aspects of his love I would otherwise not. That is the point of Jesus existence - facilitating relationship with, and knowledge of, God.

However he also allows room for those that don't wish to be with him, and don't want eternal life, to have it. You can call it punishment, oblivion, destruction, whatever, but it is our choice.

I respect your view, and it is certainly none of my buisiness what you do or not with your beliefs. I appreciate the conversation though, and enjoy discussing something so central to my existence.

Thanks for the response, once again.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[caleb]

I never liked him anyway he was off.....in the head.

-Steven

ARGHHHHH DAMN YOU AZUREWOLF YOU GOT MY BRAVECRACK ADDICTION GOING AGAIN!!!

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BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

[Yorick]

Yeah, but what was he saying?

Also I'm not Irish, I'm Australian. I have Anglo-Irish-Scottish ancestry, but I'm very much an Austrayan.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!