Israel/Palestine

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Okay, what follows is all a post of Silver Cheetah's that I have taken the liberty of stealing from another thread, because I think it deserves to be the start of a distinct thread. Hope you are not offended by my doing this, Silver:

Ok, for the lowdown on this written by JEWS, go to the URL below...

http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

To my mind, it's a very clear statement of what happened since the year dot. And it goes into topic you mention in great detail.

Here's the introduction, just to whet anyone's appetite that's interested:

'The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs' inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists' intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn't matter. The Arabs' opposition to Zionism wasn't based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.'


This is a REALLY good little booklet, in several sections, really easy to read. I really recommend it.


Okay, now it is me, Diogenes, again: I have looked at the link posted here, and as Cheetah says, it seems to be excellent. I quickly read the "Criticism of Zionism by Jews" section, and it was very good indeed. I will certainly read the rest of this little booklet later.

[Silver Cheetah]

Cool, Dio! I didn't think of starting a separate thread with it, but yes, a great idea. I like that it is written by Jews. (I have been accused of being anti-semitic a number of times on this board. That cannot at least be thrown at the authors of this material!!

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-11-2001).]

[Sir Kenyth]

Not to sound a bit silly, but didn't they buy the land? If you sold it, apparently, you didn't want it. Whats the problem with living on it if you bought it? Canada isn't warring with us because they sold us alaska and we actually have the gall to live there. If you don't want them to live there, then don't sell the land, right? This is quite interesting. I'm going to peruse the link right now!

[This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Sir Kenyth]

Wow! Excellent reading. Thumbs up for this informative link. The solution is still what I thought it should be at first. Draw the border, and call it quits.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: Wow! Excellent reading. Thumbs up for this informative link. The solution is still what I thought it should be at first. Draw the border, and call it quits.

If only it were that easy. They tried that in 1950. The West bank was initially part of Transjordan (now called Jordan) and the Golan heights Syria. The Arabic nations refused to acknowledge the existance of Israel.

Just because a piece is written by the victim nationality does not automatically reflect accuracy. Not all Jews are Zionists for a start. There are more Jews outside of Israel (and in the US alone) than in.

According to Silver Cheetahs blaming theories it's all the Arabs fault anyway. Their policies of aggressive expansion circa 600A.D. created the whole mess.




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: Not to sound a bit silly, but didn't they buy the land? If you sold it, apparently, you didn't want it. Whats the problem with living on it if you bought it? Canada isn't warring with us because they sold us alaska and we actually have the gall to live there. If you don't want them to live there, then don't sell the land, right? This is quite interesting. I'm going to peruse the link right now! [This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 10-12-2001).]

Hey Part of the reason Canada isnt warring with the US over Alaska is because Canada dindnt sell it to you...: Russia did!



[This message has been edited by Djinn Raffo (edited 10-12-2001).]

[Sir Kenyth]

Yeah, I know, but it's the only close situation I could come up with.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: [This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 10-12-2001).][/b]

Hey Part of the reason Canada isnt warring with the US over Alaska is because Canada dindnt sell it to you...: Russia did!

[This message has been edited by Djinn Raffo (edited 10-12-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 10-12-2001).]

[John D Harris]

I have a couple of problems with the time line used for Israel. What about the 200-250 years before the Kingdom was sent up? Where not the Israelites ocupying the land? What about the years between the Greek conquest 414 BC+- until the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 73AD+- ? While Isreal did not exist as an independant country it was still occupied by the Jews for the most part.
Lest anyone think I'm saying the Jews deserve Isreal because of ancient land rights I'm not! I have trouble with the pamplet when it omits (willingly or unwillingly) facts to support it position. That immediately raises a "Red Flag" with me.

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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

[Silverquick]

I just read it,

Unfortunately though it holds a lot of truths, it is also one sided and hold a lot of... well... things it needs to ignore to make its points.

They keep talking about Israeli occupied Territories. Hmmm. Well the truth of the matter is those occupied Terrritories of Today are occupied because of the 6 day war one in which Israel was not the Aggressor.
Though Israel/France/Brittain can be blamed for the Suez Canal war that preceeded it, even then its questionable since the Brittish and French litterally paid and built the Suez Canal and it was denied to them.

They always seem to neglect to tell you that it was the United States who jumped in and pushed Israel into giving back the Sinai peninsula at that time. Also that the USA acted as a UN peacekeeping force until Egypt threw us out and huddle with Jordan and Syria.

The West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan heights, Sinai perninsula are the current occupied territories. The people who live there are not the original Palestinians. They are former Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians. The original Palestinians were long gone they are right, Israel and the Brittish litterally bought the land and never let them buy it back yes some of the Arabs were thrown offf the land outright. Before the Suez Canal war Israel controlled 95% of The land in Israel. There simply werent many Palestinians left in the original Israel.

But you would have to read up on the Suez Canal war and the Six-day war to understand that.

What everyone needs to understand is that The Israelis do not have clean hands... unfortunately neither do the Palestinians.

There is a reason Israel wants control of 30% of those areas in the peace agreement Its because of the Israelis living there. They already know whats going to happen if they simply turn it over to the Palestinians. It means lots dead Israelis. They also neglect to mention that through nearly all the peace process it was not the Israelis that broke the cease fires. That would be Hammas and Arafat has shown little control over them until just recently.

This region is a very gray area. But then again I wonder how many people in the United States actually believe Israel is guiltless anyway.

Which leaves the United States position screwy at best. The truth of the matter is that the Extreme side of the Palestinian debate wants Israel itself to be destroyed and dissolved. The Extreme side of the Israeli position is nearly the opposite... throw the Palestinians out of the occupied territories.

What you have heard on both sides is true yes their hands on both sides litterally drip with innocent blood.

The only real solution is for the UN to litterally for 10 years stand between the two with a peacekeeping force, This will mean sucking up suicide bomber attacks, firefight attacks and rock throwers.

No one in the UN is in a hurry to do this. The United States has the power to withdraw the Israeli toops at any time it wants, However, everytime it bids the Israelis to do this Hammas and Islamic Jihad make more attacks upon Israeli civilians and the Israelis go right back in.

Thus the Arabic world will need to contol those groups for us while we control the Israelis. Something they have been reluctant to do as well.

The biggest problem for the United States has been the guarantee of reciprocation. They cannot promise this to the Israelis and the truth on the other side of the ball is that the Palestinians offer none in return either. niether side has or will budge.

They will have to be extracted from both sides for it to be successful.

If you personally believe that Israel has no right to the occupied lands then the truth of the matter is that those lands dont belong to the current Palestinians either. They belong to Egypt, Syria, and Jordan who did in reality attack Israel the occupied lands are the lands occupied in a counterattack durring the Six day war in 1967 long after the original war for independence.

Right now the compromise is to in essence do what Brittian did minus the removal of the Israelis and give the current Palestinians in essence a free state they can rule. However, both sides are being problem children.

Its pretty much why George Bush walked away from the situation in my opinion. He watched Arafat on one side with little control over the Hammas and Islamic Jihad and then watched the Israelis elect... of all people Arial Sharon.

The man who chased Yassir Arafat into Bierut and turned the place into a War Zone, course at the time Arafat and the PLO were indeed making terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians at the time and hiding behind the Lebanese. And this merely scratches the surface of all the things that happened there.

But it illustrates how complicated these situations get.

You can say "Whelp, Just withdraw the Israelis and end your support for them". This would be just as big of problem as The Palestinians position is not for peace either, the general Palestinians really do want the Israelis dead so does the rest of the Middle East. Many in the Arab world want this.

I dont blame George Bush for walking away and covering his eyes. Before the Terrorist attacks 9/11 these two were gearing up to fight each other again and the United States wanted no part of it.

[Silverquick]

On another Note,

The United States did not become involved in Israel in the way it is today until after 1967. Many people claim this was a result of "Zionist" influence. but thats not the case.

The 6 day war highlighted something that was a growing concern at the time for the United States. The Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians were using Soviet built equipment in that war. The Israelis at the time were supported by Brittain and France. It was the French built fighters that allowed them to totally outclass the three armies arrayed against them.

Cold War concerns are much more likely considering the time period than any "Zionist" influence. The USA more than likely picked up Israel as a chess piece. If not for the Israelis capitalizing on this during the Cold War (Litterally proving themselves to be an indespensible ally with an intelligence network second to none) it is likely the United States would be in a different position.

With Israel the United States doesnt have to tiptoe around the Middle East. They can litterally have direct monitoring and guaranteed access with regards to special forces and insertions as well as intelligence information on anyone in the middle east. Israel is the one who usually sets up or arranges the meeting with more covert forces over there in the middle east and lets us know who to contact and when.

Other muslim nations in the area have had multiple chances to become and allies of the same caliber which would result in less need for Israel, however, none of those governments have been stable enough or friendly enough for the United States to count on.

This is why Israel is a must have ally for the United States.