My beliefs

[Pikachu_PM]

Sorry..I posted this under another topic and thought it might be better to start a new post as we were already on page 4 of the other one.
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Wow! This forum is great....so many smart people!!

O.k. First off let me explain where I fall with my beliefs. If you ask me if I believe in God and find the bible to be an infallible book then I will tell you that, while I certainly think it *might* be possible He exist and the bible is infallible that I seriosly doubt it. The bible was written by man (5 different men, in fact) and whether you believe it was inspired by God or not the fact is man is fallible, whether God is or not.

One of the reasons that the bible has a tendency to focus on the greatness of the second son's through most of the book is due to much of the bible being written by the people of the Northern tribes of the early Isrealites. The Northern tribes were, in effect, 'second sons' of the Southern Isrealites, as when the King (I forget his name) died, he had two sons and two high priest. Each priest supported one of the sons. The first son kept the kingdom and declared there to be only one high prisest. He banhished the second son and his priest to Northern Isreal. I have not expalined this well, but suffice to say, biases have pretty much been proven in the bibles writing.

Now, if you ask me if I am sprititual, the answer is certainly, yes...just in a different way. There may in fact be a god, but I see 'Him' more as the total consciences of 'us' with us being the ENTIRE universe. We may think we are each different ppl, but in truth we are one in the same. Each of us are the universe becoming self aware of itself. I believe there is a higher power to the universe, but I do not believe a single one of the religions have it all right...or all wrong. I believe in tolerance, and I believe life itself to be a miracle and sacred regardless of what people believe. I would not want to worship any real or false God who would damn a 'non-believer' to eternal hell fire simply because he doubted---even if he did good works his entire life.

My problem with a lot of religions, as institutions, is that for all their preaching of good works, they cause more pain and suffering than not. Do you know how many countless lives have been ended in the name of God? How many candles have been put out, never to burn again, simply because they disagreed with a more powerful cultures spiritual beliefs?

Do you know how many people out there believe their Religion is the one TRUE religion. Do you know how many different religions believe this with as much certainty as as any Christian? Well, only one religion IF ANY can be right..what makes you so certain it is yours?

Maybe it is the one true religion, but the fact that most Christians won't even acknowledge that it MIGHT not be is ludacrous (in my opinion). I'm not asking people to renounce their faith, just THINK as much as they FEEL.

Ultimately I am not anti-religion...what I am against is people using an authority who MAY OR MAY NOT exist through writings that may or may not be the work of said authority IF he/she exist to justify, througout history, opinions and actions that are at there very nature destructive and and devisive.

Lastly, i resent any implication that one must be religious to be a good person...in actuallity some of the greatest humanitarians of the world have been either athiest or agnositic. I believe that once one excepts that deeds are more important than belief, we can all realize that for better or worse we are all part of the same place and that our differences are what makes us stronger...not weaker

[Maelakin]

From your beliefs stated above, I have a question for you. Do you believe in mystical abilities that break the common laws of physics, or do you believe that everything is bound the physical laws the universe imposes on everything and nothing can exist outside of those laws?

[Pikachu_PM]

Originally posted by Maelakin: From your beliefs stated above, I have a question for you. Do you believe in mystical abilities that break the common laws of physics, or do you believe that everything is bound the physical laws the universe imposes on everything and nothing can exist outside of those laws?

Well, it depends on what you mean. In general, I believe that nothing can exist outside the laws of physics...at least in this dimension (as to my belief on whether or not other dimensions exist, a.k.a. Slider, I am not knowledgable enough on the subject to form an opinion.

However, I have often wondered about time, and its function/relatiohship to the world around us. I am able to 'visualize' (for lack of a better word) the concept of time continuing foward to the infinitive...however, I have yet in my life been able to comprehend the idea of time continuing back infinfinitively. I can imagine time never ending, but not time never beginning.

I've often wondered if perhaps time is circular, much like everything else in the universe. More to the point, I wonder if time is more of a 'perception' than anything. As the universe is expanding outwards time appears to be going foward, and as it retracts back in on itself (it might not, but right now we'll assume it does)time will then appear to be going 'backwards'. Then the big bang will happen all over again...perhaps things will be different each time, but with the laws of physics being what they are, perhaps not.

Its kind of hard to explain in a post I guess...basically, there are so many wonderous things about the universe and so much we don't understand, that what may seem 'mystical' might in fact be a law we've yet fully understood (aka, gravity). More to the point, we work on an assumption that there is a natural order to the universe (it is a good assumption i think) but if the chaos theory holds validity, then it is quite possible we could wake up tommorow and have all of the laws we know change on us. Logically, of course, I don't believe that.

[Maelakin]

You answered the question I was asking.

My reason for doing so is something I personally do to categorize different systems of belief. I break everyone up into two different categories, one being faith systems and the other being philosophical systems. Faith systems always rely on some form of mystical or divine intervention. In this system, laws of physics and the like are not important because there is usually some form of a divine entity to which the laws do not apply. Philosophical systems do not believe in mystical or divine intervention, but they may believe in acts some would deem mystical. The difference is that the philosophical system believes that everything can eventually be answered given time and experience.

Note: I use the term law very loosely here. The basic presumption is that everything is bound together by a set of rules, and breaking free from that rule set is impossible. Whether this rule set comes from any facet of science is irrelevant. The point is just that there is a rule set in this system.

well, maelakin, toss me in the second box. although i havent worked out whether or not there is a divine being, or what form it might take, i feel that the universe is bound by physical laws, laws that we are but children only beginning to understand. there is so much we cant explain, which implies so much that is possible. through learning i hope one day we will.

personally, i find a convergence between mathematics and divinity. if you will indulge me...

the mathematics of quantum physics is arcane and abstract in the sense that we cannot reconcile it with the real world on the scale we commonly experience. as such, we are left with thought experiments to tweak out subtleties of meaning.

one such thought experiment resulted in something called the copenhagen interpretation. basically, this states that reality is determined by an outside observer, where this outside observation is defined as someone or thing which lies outside the scope of the event (lots of room for debate here - how far outside an event is outside? - but i'll press on, if you can bear with me.)

the implication is that each one of us, through our observation and simple existence help create the reality in the world around us. without observation, it's all just probabilities and possibilities. einstein struggled with this until his death, not wanting to admit that "god plays dice with the universe".

the point being that, if each one of us contributes to reality, god is us. there is a god in each and every one of us, and god is all of us combined. that's to say that, together, we make the universe what it is. whew, that's a lot of responsibility.

it starts to dovetail into all kinds of other belief systems at this point, like consensual reality and cosmic unconscious and god is everywhere and god is in all of us.

as a professional mathematician and statistician, the most fascinating thing for me, on a day to day level, is struggling to find meaning from numbers. lo and behold, science has uncovered a mathematical system underlying our universe which we cannot reconcile with day to day experience. so to do so, requires a leap to meaning, a leap of faith if you will.

dont get me wrong, science is a method grounded in empiricism. but the results of science require as much faith as any other religion when it comes to interpretation.

and as i stated at the end of the "other" thread where we started, the amazing thing is that, at the end of each road, be it hinduism, zen, any of the native american or aboriginal systems, and even science, they all arrive at the same thing. we're really just arguing about which road to travel to get there.

which, in the big scheme of things, is kinda silly, ya know?

[Faceman]

Let me join the group and elaborate my beliefs:
I am what you'd commonly call an Agnostic and concerning philosophy I appreciate the thoughts of many (mostly Ancient Greek and Enlightenment) philosophers. Yet there is only one sentence I trust to be true: "scio nescio", I know that I don't know.
This makes it hard to believe in anything and even harder to find the sense of life because I'm always aware that I could be erring completely. The workaround I have found is the simple way of assumption. Making logical decisions is not so hard, and when it occurs to me that I might be completely wrong (although I'm pretty sure about it) I just have to take that risk instead of making no decision at all.
Concerning god or divine beings I don't believe in the religious sense, and I have concluded that I really can't know if there is a divine being so as long as I can't see any influence on me I'd have to deal with I rather not care.
Concerning god and religion as a human creation I have the greatest respect for religious people who give their live sense by believing and living according to their beliefs as long as they don't harm others in fanatical pursuit of their faith.
I try to explain the world for myself with the laws of physics but I don't deny the existence of something mystical. I just never came across it and therefore never had the opportunity to reflect on it, should it exist.

the truly wise know they know the least, faceman.

that's why these discussions are so valuable. and that's why, for example, i threw out my thoughts on mathematics and divinity. right or wrong? dunno, but it sparks new connections everytime someone shares their perspectives. learning is life [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Maelakin]

I base the philosophy I follow on two things, psychology and probable possibilities. I have found that many questions people can’t answer are actually answered by looking at those two things.

For example, many people question the possibility of life after death. Well, it is true that our neurological system is nothing more than a conduit for electrical and chemical signatures. Is it then not possible that even in death, ones consciousness could remain? After all, you do not need a solid corporeal form in order to have electrical and chemical reactions.

I also very much believe in what Faceman stated, I know that I do not know. By admitting this, it makes it easier to accept that which I cannot understand. When you look at the age of the human race, we are fairly new when compared to the age of the universe, so why should we expect to understand everything there is to know?

I also highly doubt the existence of a divine creator. I say doubt though because I do not know. I am however allowed to speculate. The reasoning behind my doubt actually solely rests on human nature. Humans, as conscious beings, always seem to think we need answers for everything. We are innately control freaks. This leads us to frustration when we find things outside of our control.

In response to our lack of control, I believe people have conjured up a divine entity to squarely put the control onto another’s shoulders. This is much the same as has been repeated through history. One only needs to look at the Greek gods for a prime example. In the Greek’s polytheistic society, they had a god to explain everything that they could not control. I have no reason to believe that the modern religions of today are no different.

There is a lot more to this philosophy, but I think the basic principles have been covered. Also, by understanding my philosophy on life, those who had a chance to read my old signature will get a good look into why I stand by the statement it makes.

[Chewbacca]

Just a quick comment on whether or not mystic belief involves 'breaking' the laws of the universe. An excellent book on this topic is'The Tao of Physics' It is a fascinating look at parallels between modern physics and ancient mystical thinking (particularly of eastern mysticism, but this does relate to general contemporary mystical belief as well.)

An excellent, but perhaps layman's, book on tao is 'The Tao of Pooh'

i've had a lot of success giving it to friends and getting them off the treadmill [img]graemlins/treadmill.gif[/img] to reach a higher state of consciousness [img]graemlins/happyspoonboy.gif[/img]