Islam: The Religion of Peace

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: To the Gas! Is that what will provide an end to debate? If the Nazis had won the second world war and a systematic 'what if' of genocide was carried out upon the illegitemate peoples of the Earth.. wouldn't the Earth be such a peaceful place if we were all Aryans?

*ahem* Someone could invoke Godwins Law

www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Donut but edited: "In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule." That's not what Islam is all about. That should not and that will not stand in America. Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America.

Sorry Donut,
With respect I know you don't feel the way my post intimates. I just feel that this piece you quoted:

Originally posted by Donut: I found this interesting: "Remember that Muhammad was a military leader and as such involved personally in a great deal of brutality. In the course of one battle, Muhammad's troops raid a village and kill everyone "until there was no survivor left." [Full citations provided below.] During another battle, Muhammad's troops killed many men but the "prophet" is disturbed that male infants weren't murdered too--and sends the troops back to finish the job. The early Muslims are shown to be not only brutal but treacherous (a fact worth remembering as we consider peace treaties with Muslim nations). In one battle, the Muhammadans promised peace to a tribe nearby. Then, when the other tribe members were lulled into complacency, Muhammad massacred "all the males." They kept the women as slaves. The hatred for other faiths that we see in modern Islam has its roots in the Quran. The book tells how the Jews of the area had offered peace and Muhammad invited them to a ceremony to declare peace. Instead, Muhammad massacred the 950 of them. Muhammad even countenances brutality against his own people. When a group in the region reputedly insulted Allah by worshiping an idol, Muhammad led the slaughter of 3,000 people in a single day. When some of his followers strayed by following non-Islamic sex practices, Allah literally directs Muhammad to slaughter another 24,000: "take all the heads of the people and hang them up before Allah against the sun." Under the Sharia, the Islamic law, even the slightest infractions are punished with brutal violence. Some foods were not cooked according to Halal laws? Two men were immediately executed. The notion that Allah is a forgiving God is comical. At one point, Muhammad had led his troops to victory and then had his troops mutilate the genitalia of the opponents. He and his allies also set fire to a walled city and then waited for the victims to flee, at which point they were ambushed and slaughtered. Putting aside the historical accuracy of that account, is this really the "God of Peace" that Muslim leaders speak about? The appalling treatment of women we see in Islamic countries today also has its roots in the Quran. When a mob of Muslims is attacking a man, he responds by offering his own daughter to be raped. Allah teaches the Muslims that to in order repopulate a diminished tribe, they should go to a nearby field, wait for the women to come out, and then kidnap, rape and marry them. This is all very consistent with the basic theology of Islam spelled out in chilling clarity by Muhammad himself: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." Finally, if there's any doubt about the fanatical nature of the faith, it should be dispelled with this chilling passage: "Happy shall they be who take your little ones [babies] and dash them against the rock." Hmmm, I seem to have made a few errors with the attributions. The passages you've just read are not from the Quran; they're from the Bible. Where I say Muhammad, I actually meant either Moses, Joshua, David, or another biblical figure. "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" was uttered by Jesus. When I say "Allah," I actually meant God of the Hebrew Bible. And when I refer to Muhammed's troops, I actually meant the Hebrews."

took many things out of context, and my correct but edited quoting of you is an example of what can be done.

For more examples, if you read Mathew Chapter 10 which has the "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" quote, you'll easily see that it was not said in the same sense as your quote describes.

"happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." comes from Psalm 137 - The Old Testament - which as Jesus later stated was over ridden by such words as "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." John 13:34.

That is for Christians; the Jews may not believe in the New Testament, but Jesus - who was a Jew - also said this: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I merely wish to point out with all of this, that I believe the author of your quote has missrepresented Jews and Christians through out of context passages and a lack of research.

I'm enjoying this thread so far. Cheers mate! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 12-23-2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonis ]

[Donut]

Leonis

I feel that you have proved my point. Holy books can be used to prove any viewpoint by selective quoting and quoting out of context. I quoted the piece in response to the claim that all muslims seek world domination. The claim was justified by reference to the Koran.

BTW - I've just heard a member of my staff ask a muslim woman for her 'christian name'. Oy vey!

BTW2 The first quote wasn't mine either it was actually from a speech by a famous American politician. George Walker Bush.

[ 12-23-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Mouse]

Actually, here are a couple of quotes from The Koran / Qu'aran

And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
(HQ: 2:190-193

Which seems to legitimise limited and proportionate retaliation to aggression only and

Say Oh unblievers, (ungrateful to Allah), I worship not that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine
(HQ: 109:1-6).

Which seems to be a direct instruction to allow diversity and freedom of worship.

I realise that they are quoted out of context, but I think they show an interesting aspect of Islamic teaching.

P.S. Could someone direct me to the exact reference in the Koran where it states the only way to attain paradise is through martyrdom. I can't find it.

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Mouse: Actually, here are a couple of quotes from The Koran / Qu'aran Say Oh unblievers, (ungrateful to Allah), I worship not that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine (HQ: 109:1-6). Which seems to be a direct instruction to allow diversity and freedom of worship.

This could also be interpreted (since it is out of context) that this is preaching intolerance. "I refuse your ideas. I also considder you insignificant to try to teach you mine. You are nothing."

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: Originally posted by Mouse: Actually, here are a couple of quotes from The Koran / Qu'aran Say Oh unblievers, (ungrateful to Allah), I worship not that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine (HQ: 109:1-6). Which seems to be a direct instruction to allow diversity and freedom of worship.

This could also be interpreted (since it is out of context) that this is preaching intolerance. "I refuse your ideas. I also considder you insignificant to try to teach you mine. You are nothing."[/QUOTE]Sorry, but nowhere in that does it say that unbelievers are nothing, nor that their ideas are worthless.
Maybe you misinterpret because of the language used, but simplified it merely says that those who do not believe in Allah, do not and will not worship the same as a Muslim, just as a muslim does not and will not worship what they worship.

I would have thought that the last line made it particularly clear, it says "To you be your way, and to me mine"
That, if anything, is espousing that people shall follow their own ways, and in no way suggests intolerance, merely acknowledges that there is difference.

[Draten-Master of Fire and Ice]

I think I am in agreement with Yorick on most of his posts. Yorick, you seem to be a Christian with similar beliefs to mine.

I do not believe that anyone claiming to be a Christian who does things like kill people and subjegate people to persecution for any reason is actually a Christian...they may be misguided or they may simply be a "wolf in sheep's clothing. Now folks, don't get upset at me but I personally do not believe that the Catholic Church: author of the Inquisition, etc. is anything at all interested in the goals or motives of Jesus; nor are they a Christian faith at all: they are...something else.

Similarly, I do not believe for an instant that all Muslims are the same. I do not, as some of you clearly do, have much actual knowledge of Muslims and do not care to quote from the Quran because of this. I do know that a person (individual) can be most clearly understood not by what they say, but by what they do, as Mouse says. So, regardless of what the Quran says or does not say it is quite a simple thing to see that things like flying a plane full of innocent people into a structure in order to kill more innocent people is an evil act: this act would define someone as being an evil-aligned character for instance. But not all Muslims do such things...or condone them, ergo not all Muslims are evil. I believe that Muslims are misguided: they do NOT worship the God of Abraham or Jesus so my faith tells me that they are NOT worshipping my God. But I do not wish to kill them because of this, nor have I, nor will I: I am not evil, I am Good. (prob. Neutral Good) It is a difficult thing, however, to turn the other cheek, and I think that if a Muslim terrorist or anyone else tried to kill me or my family...let's just say I know which way to point my weapon. Does this make me evil? I think not: it makes me human, and flawed, certainly; but not evil. Similarly should you weigh the quality of all people without being fooled by labels, I think.

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: Originally posted by Mouse: Actually, here are a couple of quotes from The Koran / Qu'aran Say Oh unblievers, (ungrateful to Allah), I worship not that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine (HQ: 109:1-6). Which seems to be a direct instruction to allow diversity and freedom of worship.

This could also be interpreted (since it is out of context) that this is preaching intolerance. "I refuse your ideas. I also considder you insignificant to try to teach you mine. You are nothing."[/QUOTE]Sorry, but nowhere in that does it say that unbelievers are nothing, nor that their ideas are worthless.
Maybe you misinterpret because of the language used, but simplified it merely says that those who do not believe in Allah, do not and will not worship the same as a Muslim, just as a muslim does not and will not worship what they worship.

I would have thought that the last line made it particularly clear, it says "To you be your way, and to me mine"
That, if anything, is espousing that people shall follow their own ways, and in no way suggests intolerance, merely acknowledges that there is difference.[/QUOTE]I never mentioned the intended meaning. I merely pointed out one possible interpretation of the out of context quote. A devils adovcate point of view. If you interpret the bulk of the quote as negative and hostile (which is possible), the last statement (while seemingly positive and tolerant) comes off as intolerant.

Agreeing to disagree does not neccisarily mean the end of hostilities, nor the acceptance of other views. It just states that the discussion is over - possibly on friendly terms, possibly not.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Well, for someone to reach that conclusion they wouild have to take their interpretation off on an irrelevant tangent, but then I suppose the sad reality is that people will always twist something to mean something completely different so that they adhere to it.

[Night Stalker]

Well, I agree that it's not a very nice interpretation, and a very sad one too. But it is possible to support or renounce any idea using the same out of context quote.

Many wars were fought in Medeival times in the name of Christ, quoting the Bible, when the message of Christ is clearly a peaceful one ("Love thy enemy", "Turn the other cheek"). It's easy to see how silly things can get when interpreting out of context.

That said, to add context, refference Yorrik's posts (as he seems more read on the Qu'aran than I), and it is easy to see where I got the intolerance interpretation. The portions of the Qu'aran that I have read do support what Yorrik has already stated, and I tend to agree with him.