Starting over AGAIN? This is ridiculous..

Nanobyte · 09-21-2002, 07:29 PM

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[img]graemlins/arcadefreak.gif[/img]
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[img]graemlins/arcadefreak.gif[/img]
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[img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img]
Uhh.. I am never going to finish this game! I constantly am forced to restart because my parties are too unbalanced. Right now, I'm in chapter 1 at the Goblin fortress. My problem is that I can not kill the last shaman before he starts drumming in all these worg riders. My party consists of all level 5/6 Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric, Monk. To start things off, my monk sucks; he can't fight, has one of the lowest hp, and is constantly being killed. Barbarians, I'm not completely used to these guys, so I have a hard time managing one. My Ranger and Paladin do fairly well, and my Cleric does fine. I know I'm missing offensive magic, and that's why I'm deciding to start over for the 4th time. I've been wanting to keep the Ranger ever since I started, but maybe I need to clear my mind and come up with something fresh. Can you guys give me any pointers?

[ 09-21-2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Nanobyte ]

Larry_OHF · 09-21-2002, 08:03 PM

Yeah...do waht I did. I had a druid in my party but she was always the one to die, so I went to the option that allows you to make changes in your party "in the field". I dropped her and created another character in her place...then used the cheat console to bring her to the level that everyone else is at. That really is not cheating...if you bring a new character up to par with the rest of the group. If you have fuond three people that you enjoy...keep them and make changes to the other three...but don't start over!

So far, you have a good Ranger, Paladin, and Cleric. Very good. You mentioned you wanted a Mage or some sort, and I would recommend a Sorcerer. That will be your weakest link for a while, due to the HP and armor problems that mages deal with. But hey...what can you do?

Next, grab an archer of some kind...like a fighter class that will sepcialize in archery as his main weapon. An elf gets a little faster start on that feat. I am currently using a teifling as my archer. I needed somebody to pick'em off from afar. Sometimes the monsters are dead before my melee fighters can even get there to trade sword blows! That's what I like!

With one more slot...I would not know what to recommend from here. If you are new to CRPGs...You might pick up a secondary healer. You could have one of those Aasimars or a Teifling. ...or maybe even try a drow fighter.

Luvian · 09-21-2002, 08:04 PM

If you are not confortable with playing monks and barbarian, then I suggest you use warriors instead.

Here is my party, and I am having no trouble.

>Paladin (using longsword and shield)
>Fighter (using bastard sword and shield or axes)
>Ranger (using mainly bow, but can be used as a melee fighter using a long sword)
>Priest (If your priest is good, don't memorise healing spells, as any spell can be converted to healing spells by shift clicking on them. Memorise protection and "buff" spells instead.)
>Sorcerer (Get stoneskin and emotion: hope as soon as you can. Stoneskin can be cast on your melee character, making them nearly invincible. Emotion: hope affect all your party, raising hit, damage, and saving throw rolls by 2 points.)
>Thief (Get a high dexterity, and as soon as you hit level 7-8, dual to a fighter to have better health and better chance at hitting monsters, making your backstab more likely to hit. When you can make 3 attacks per rounds, restart raising your thief level).

Nanobyte · 09-21-2002, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
I went to the option that allows you to make changes in your party "in the field".

Where is that option? Are you referring to a multiplayer IP game, only that you're playing it solely for the purpose of fixing problems in your party?

Quote:

Next, grab an archer of some kind...like a fighter class that will sepcialize in archery as his main weapon. An elf gets a little faster start on that feat. I am currently using a teifling as my archer. I needed somebody to pick'em off from afar. Sometimes the monsters are dead before my melee fighters can even get there to trade sword blows! That's what I like!

Thanx Larry! I've decided to just start over, in a multi-, so I'll have the option of changing any characters, like you stated above. I'm leaning towards a more chaotic bunch, so far a CN Human Rogue and a LE Drow Conjurer/Cleric (unless that is null..), and you archer idea would be perfect.

Quote:

If you are new to CRPGs...

Actually, I'm fairly old to them. Started back on Stonekeep I think, jumped around a little thereafter, and made a firm landing on D1.

Quote:

Originally posted by Luvian:
If your priest is good, don't memorise healing spells, as any spell can be converted to healing spells by shift clicking on them.

I didn't know that. Those loading hints, is that what they meant for converting spells?

Luvian · 09-21-2002, 08:42 PM

Yes, that's what they meant.

You don't have to make a multiplayer game to change the characters. You can do that in single player now too. The icon for that is hard to see, but just click around on the bottom right corner of the scren, where all the others button are, or simply wait for larry to point you to it.

Larry_OHF · 09-21-2002, 10:18 PM

hehe...on that little blind guy down there that is holding the globe that is spinning...there are four little icons that you can click...one in each corner of the picture. At the bottom left is a little head. Click it and you will be asked if you want to make changes, then who do you want to delete. Then, you can create a new character in that open space.

vesselle · 09-21-2002, 11:22 PM

while you are ingame single player, press "c"

that brings up the "character arbitration" screen where you can delete, add or modify existing party members.

also, i recommend, that you look over the pre-made chars when you are deciding. seeing what chars BIS has designed for you might give you some pointers on how you are distributing your points. i mean, there are many differences from the 2e rules, so please don't think i am disparaging your ability to design a char.

i ended up making 14 parties till i finally got this one together. i'm pleased with all aspects of each char, and my monk is kicking butt. but i ended up taking a couple of the premade chars from the parties, and changing a few things around (ranger and barbie).

just some things to consider!

remember to export all your chars before you dump them or change them, just in case you want to bring them up again later.

V***V

[ 09-21-2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: vesselle ]

DraconisRex · 09-22-2002, 08:28 PM

Party balance plays an important role in the IE series of games (BG, BGII, IWD, IWDII). Here are some basics of party formation and management for a 6-person party:

1. 2 (two) of the melee classes selected from the Fighter, Ranger, Paldin, Barbarian & Monk. Each have strengths and weaknesses.

Fighters are the strongest melee specialist in the game. They have the most feats of the melee specialists, giving them a tremendous selection of offensive/defensive feat selection. You can range from two-handed weapon tanks, to dual-weilding tanks to ranged weapon dexterity fighters. You can pick up many of the advantages of Rangers/Paladins by taking 3 or 4 levels of cleric.

Paladins fight nearly as well as Fighters, but are more limited because they trade feats for a limited selection of spells. Those spells are nice, but you get fewer feats. Generally, this ends up with you specializing in one weapon or giving up quality defensive feats, such as Iron Will. That's nice if you picked the right weapon when compared to the game's balance, but if you didn't...

Rangers get the dual-wield feat for free, but the offensive increase does not merit the defensive decrease; otherwise they're like Paladins.

Barbarians do not fight as well as fighters (once again, it's a "feat" problem) unless on "rage," and that ends, leaving the Barbarian weakened. Barbarians work better if dual-classed with rogue (Ghostwise Halflings or Half-orcs).

Monks do very well in man-on-man situations and are unbalanced toward PC favor in these situations. However, the opposite is true in crowds (can't use dexterity bonuses from flanking/rear attacks); monks are also weak in HP.

2. You need a (one) divine caster.

Good clerics have advantages in IWD:II. It's the nature of the campaign. A neutral cleric (Mask) can be helpful, especially with a rogue multi-class. Evil clerics get the short-end of the stick. You just don't get that many opportunities to take advantage of them.

A druid is a viable substitute for a cleric. Be warned, they don't convert spells to healing spells. This limits the Druid in flexibility.

3. You need an expert treasure finder.

If you go with Druid, I'd take a bard. If you go with rogue, I'd multi-class it with either cleric (mask) or wizard.

4. You need an arcane spell caster.

Wizard, hands down. Flexibility in magic is required. Make sure you can "divine" (identify) in your party if you're going to take a specialty school that prohibits divination. It's a darn weak spell school in the game, but w/o identify, you'll spend 1,000's. AND there are plenty of "cursed" items that you don't want to equip.

Sorcerers work, but *this* game follow the rules. You pick a bad spell, too bad, it's with you forever. Also, Sorcerers are like top-fuel dragsters - real fast, don't turn very well.

5. With your sixth character, you take whatever strikes your fancy. I've done tons of weird things. Bard/Rogue/Wizard hybrids. Fighter/Mages. Cleric/Druids. Ranger/Druids. Wizard/Monks. Sorcerer/Monks. Not all have worked well.

Magness · 09-22-2002, 11:07 PM

Identify spells are OK. But after a while a wizard that's contantly been taking the Arcane skills will be able to identify items without an identify spell.

My current party is:

Paladin
Fighter
Rogue
Wizard
Bard
Cleric

Plenty of balance.

The bard is not much of an offensive spellfcaster, but can cast some decent summon spells, some moderate healing spells, and some other support spells. Arguably, he's my 1st backup tank. Mostly because I don't like to send my medic into the line unless the situation is grim. I want my medic to be doing the healing, not needing it.

I'm very much in the camp of saing that every good party deserves a great rogue. I don't know what the "official" description of a "finesse rogue" might be, but I think mine might qualify. My rogue is primarily a sniper (bow), but will run around taking sneak attack opportunities when the situation is appropriate. Her AC is more than high enough for her to hold her own in a melee, at least against moderately tough enemies.

If it fits into your party view (i.e. you like playing a LG character), a paladin is great. They will often make saves that a pure fighter will fail and be able to stay in the battle when the fighter is running away in fear.

My cleric is definitely not designed to be a backup tank. Sure, she'll take up the shield and mace when needed, but she prefers to fight with her crossbow and spellcasting.

A good party is all about balance.

Nanobyte · 09-22-2002, 11:18 PM

I want to thank all of you for your support. I have taken a few issues into consideration, and some (like Larry's) into action. Here is my party as of now:

Aaelia (yep, couldn't get rid of her [img]tongue.gif[/img] )
Tiefling
Ranger/Sorceress (1/1 no penalties)
Lawful Neutral (compared to the others, the 'Good Guy' of the bunch)
Little Info: this is that archer specializing in snake bate. lvl 4 as of now.

Kes
Human
Fighter (w/ 18 str, this guy is landing 'em hard)
Nuetral Evil
Little Info: I really need to wait for the Keeper to come out now, I made up a sort of history for this one. he has 8 char and 10 int (the int is what I want to lower), and he is like a "war veteran" except he can't talk, or never learned how. lvl 5.

Uldwar (sounds Drowish right? I was thinking Ul' Dwar)
Drow
Conjurer/Demarch of Mask (1/1, will this be good in the long run?)
Lawful Evil
Little Info: he's got the brains, can identify most items, no good robes as of yet, which stinks. has that 2x lvl penalty, so he is lvl 4 I think.

Est Verr (cool name huh?)
Human
Rogue (major skill points)
Chaotic Neutral (not really crazy, but I didn't want her being good or evil, and thieves can't be lawful, and true neutral? yea right)
Little Info: she is sorta like my 2nd tank, Kes gets the enemies attention, and she stands up there w/ him. she has fairly good damage too. lvl 5.

I've had no problems w/ these guys as of yet. They are balanced enough (well..), except that Uldwar doesn't have any healing spells (doom, bane, and inflict wounds). Having a mage/cleric and ranger/sorceress gives me a boost of magic (both are divine/arcane), Kes is just awesome (except he gets hurt alot), and having a thief (finally) is giving me some advantages money-wise.

09-21-2002, 08:03 PM	#2
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	Yeah...do waht I did. I had a druid in my party but she was always the one to die, so I went to the option that allows you to make changes in your party "in the field". I dropped her and created another character in her place...then used the cheat console to bring her to the level that everyone else is at. That really is not cheating...if you bring a new character up to par with the rest of the group. If you have fuond three people that you enjoy...keep them and make changes to the other three...but don't start over! So far, you have a good Ranger, Paladin, and Cleric. Very good. You mentioned you wanted a Mage or some sort, and I would recommend a Sorcerer. That will be your weakest link for a while, due to the HP and armor problems that mages deal with. But hey...what can you do? Next, grab an archer of some kind...like a fighter class that will sepcialize in archery as his main weapon. An elf gets a little faster start on that feat. I am currently using a teifling as my archer. I needed somebody to pick'em off from afar. Sometimes the monsters are dead before my melee fighters can even get there to trade sword blows! That's what I like! With one more slot...I would not know what to recommend from here. If you are new to CRPGs...You might pick up a secondary healer. You could have one of those Aasimars or a Teifling. ...or maybe even try a drow fighter. __________________

09-21-2002, 08:04 PM	#3
Luvian Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Age: 43 Posts: 6,763	If you are not confortable with playing monks and barbarian, then I suggest you use warriors instead. Here is my party, and I am having no trouble. >Paladin (using longsword and shield) >Fighter (using bastard sword and shield or axes) >Ranger (using mainly bow, but can be used as a melee fighter using a long sword) >Priest (If your priest is good, don't memorise healing spells, as any spell can be converted to healing spells by shift clicking on them. Memorise protection and "buff" spells instead.) >Sorcerer (Get stoneskin and emotion: hope as soon as you can. Stoneskin can be cast on your melee character, making them nearly invincible. Emotion: hope affect all your party, raising hit, damage, and saving throw rolls by 2 points.) >Thief (Get a high dexterity, and as soon as you hit level 7-8, dual to a fighter to have better health and better chance at hitting monsters, making your backstab more likely to hit. When you can make 3 attacks per rounds, restart raising your thief level). __________________ Once upon a time in Canada...

09-21-2002, 08:42 PM	#5
Luvian Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 27, 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Age: 43 Posts: 6,763	Yes, that's what they meant. You don't have to make a multiplayer game to change the characters. You can do that in single player now too. The icon for that is hard to see, but just click around on the bottom right corner of the scren, where all the others button are, or simply wait for larry to point you to it. __________________ Once upon a time in Canada...

09-21-2002, 11:22 PM	#7
vesselle Hathor Join Date: April 6, 2001 Location: the desert Posts: 2,296	while you are ingame single player, press "c" that brings up the "character arbitration" screen where you can delete, add or modify existing party members. also, i recommend, that you look over the pre-made chars when you are deciding. seeing what chars BIS has designed for you might give you some pointers on how you are distributing your points. i mean, there are many differences from the 2e rules, so please don't think i am disparaging your ability to design a char. i ended up making 14 parties till i finally got this one together. i'm pleased with all aspects of each char, and my monk is kicking butt. but i ended up taking a couple of the premade chars from the parties, and changing a few things around (ranger and barbie). just some things to consider! remember to export all your chars before you dump them or change them, just in case you want to bring them up again later. V***V [ 09-21-2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: vesselle ] __________________ my best friend is a junkie. what does your best friend do?

09-22-2002, 08:28 PM	#8
DraconisRex Avatar Join Date: January 4, 2002 Location: On my rear-end. Posts: 563	Party balance plays an important role in the IE series of games (BG, BGII, IWD, IWDII). Here are some basics of party formation and management for a 6-person party: 1. 2 (two) of the melee classes selected from the Fighter, Ranger, Paldin, Barbarian & Monk. Each have strengths and weaknesses. Fighters are the strongest melee specialist in the game. They have the most feats of the melee specialists, giving them a tremendous selection of offensive/defensive feat selection. You can range from two-handed weapon tanks, to dual-weilding tanks to ranged weapon dexterity fighters. You can pick up many of the advantages of Rangers/Paladins by taking 3 or 4 levels of cleric. Paladins fight nearly as well as Fighters, but are more limited because they trade feats for a limited selection of spells. Those spells are nice, but you get fewer feats. Generally, this ends up with you specializing in one weapon or giving up quality defensive feats, such as Iron Will. That's nice if you picked the right weapon when compared to the game's balance, but if you didn't... Rangers get the dual-wield feat for free, but the offensive increase does not merit the defensive decrease; otherwise they're like Paladins. Barbarians do not fight as well as fighters (once again, it's a "feat" problem) unless on "rage," and that ends, leaving the Barbarian weakened. Barbarians work better if dual-classed with rogue (Ghostwise Halflings or Half-orcs). Monks do very well in man-on-man situations and are unbalanced toward PC favor in these situations. However, the opposite is true in crowds (can't use dexterity bonuses from flanking/rear attacks); monks are also weak in HP. 2. You need a (one) divine caster. Good clerics have advantages in IWD:II. It's the nature of the campaign. A neutral cleric (Mask) can be helpful, especially with a rogue multi-class. Evil clerics get the short-end of the stick. You just don't get that many opportunities to take advantage of them. A druid is a viable substitute for a cleric. Be warned, they don't convert spells to healing spells. This limits the Druid in flexibility. 3. You need an expert treasure finder. If you go with Druid, I'd take a bard. If you go with rogue, I'd multi-class it with either cleric (mask) or wizard. 4. You need an arcane spell caster. Wizard, hands down. Flexibility in magic is required. Make sure you can "divine" (identify) in your party if you're going to take a specialty school that prohibits divination. It's a darn weak spell school in the game, but w/o identify, you'll spend 1,000's. AND there are plenty of "cursed" items that you don't want to equip. Sorcerers work, but this game follow the rules. You pick a bad spell, too bad, it's with you forever. Also, Sorcerers are like top-fuel dragsters - real fast, don't turn very well. 5. With your sixth character, you take whatever strikes your fancy. I've done tons of weird things. Bard/Rogue/Wizard hybrids. Fighter/Mages. Cleric/Druids. Ranger/Druids. Wizard/Monks. Sorcerer/Monks. Not all have worked well. __________________ Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?<br /><br />Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.<br /><br />Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!

09-21-2002, 07:29 PM	#1
Nanobyte Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: NC Age: 38 Posts: 2,890	[img]graemlins/arcadefreak.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/arcadefreak.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/arcadefreak.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] Uhh.. I am never going to finish this game! I constantly am forced to restart because my parties are too unbalanced. Right now, I'm in chapter 1 at the Goblin fortress. My problem is that I can not kill the last shaman before he starts drumming in all these worg riders. My party consists of all level 5/6 Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric, Monk. To start things off, my monk sucks; he can't fight, has one of the lowest hp, and is constantly being killed. Barbarians, I'm not completely used to these guys, so I have a hard time managing one. My Ranger and Paladin do fairly well, and my Cleric does fine. I know I'm missing offensive magic, and that's why I'm deciding to start over for the 4th time. I've been wanting to keep the Ranger ever since I started, but maybe I need to clear my mind and come up with something fresh. Can you guys give me any pointers? [ 09-21-2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Nanobyte ]

09-21-2002, 10:18 PM	#6
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	hehe...on that little blind guy down there that is holding the globe that is spinning...there are four little icons that you can click...one in each corner of the picture. At the bottom left is a little head. Click it and you will be asked if you want to make changes, then who do you want to delete. Then, you can create a new character in that open space.

09-22-2002, 11:07 PM	#9
Magness Quintesson Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Manchester, NH, USA Posts: 1,025	Identify spells are OK. But after a while a wizard that's contantly been taking the Arcane skills will be able to identify items without an identify spell. My current party is: Paladin Fighter Rogue Wizard Bard Cleric Plenty of balance. The bard is not much of an offensive spellfcaster, but can cast some decent summon spells, some moderate healing spells, and some other support spells. Arguably, he's my 1st backup tank. Mostly because I don't like to send my medic into the line unless the situation is grim. I want my medic to be doing the healing, not needing it. I'm very much in the camp of saing that every good party deserves a great rogue. I don't know what the "official" description of a "finesse rogue" might be, but I think mine might qualify. My rogue is primarily a sniper (bow), but will run around taking sneak attack opportunities when the situation is appropriate. Her AC is more than high enough for her to hold her own in a melee, at least against moderately tough enemies. If it fits into your party view (i.e. you like playing a LG character), a paladin is great. They will often make saves that a pure fighter will fail and be able to stay in the battle when the fighter is running away in fear. My cleric is definitely not designed to be a backup tank. Sure, she'll take up the shield and mace when needed, but she prefers to fight with her crossbow and spellcasting. A good party is all about balance.

09-22-2002, 11:18 PM	#10
Nanobyte Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: NC Age: 38 Posts: 2,890	I want to thank all of you for your support. I have taken a few issues into consideration, and some (like Larry's) into action. Here is my party as of now: Aaelia (yep, couldn't get rid of her [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) Tiefling Ranger/Sorceress (1/1 no penalties) Lawful Neutral (compared to the others, the 'Good Guy' of the bunch) Little Info: this is that archer specializing in snake bate. lvl 4 as of now. Kes Human Fighter (w/ 18 str, this guy is landing 'em hard) Nuetral Evil Little Info: I really need to wait for the Keeper to come out now, I made up a sort of history for this one. he has 8 char and 10 int (the int is what I want to lower), and he is like a "war veteran" except he can't talk, or never learned how. lvl 5. Uldwar (sounds Drowish right? I was thinking Ul' Dwar) Drow Conjurer/Demarch of Mask (1/1, will this be good in the long run?) Lawful Evil Little Info: he's got the brains, can identify most items, no good robes as of yet, which stinks. has that 2x lvl penalty, so he is lvl 4 I think. Est Verr (cool name huh?) Human Rogue (major skill points) Chaotic Neutral (not really crazy, but I didn't want her being good or evil, and thieves can't be lawful, and true neutral? yea right) Little Info: she is sorta like my 2nd tank, Kes gets the enemies attention, and she stands up there w/ him. she has fairly good damage too. lvl 5. I've had no problems w/ these guys as of yet. They are balanced enough (well..), except that Uldwar doesn't have any healing spells (doom, bane, and inflict wounds). Having a mage/cleric and ranger/sorceress gives me a boost of magic (both are divine/arcane), Kes is just awesome (except he gets hurt alot), and having a thief (finally) is giving me some advantages money-wise.

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