How "modern" is the world you live in?

Ilander · 07-27-2004, 12:00 AM

I'm a young man from the conservative part of America, so I'm not sure that I'm getting a good viewpoint of things, but it seems to me that the world, much as it claims to be getting more equal and fairer, just seems to stagnate...I still have the exact same expectances hanging over me that my grandfather would have had...I just don't have the option of working in a machine-parts factory, and I'm more likely to be overwieght than malnourished...

But do I still have to adhere to the classic gender and race expectations? What does Ironworks say?

The Hierophant · 07-27-2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ilander:

But do I still have to adhere to the classic gender and race expectations?

Which are?

Ilander · 07-27-2004, 12:14 AM

The male is "supposed to be" (or pressured to be) the strong, dominant figure. The female is expected to conform to the male, and act supportively (if that is a word

). I kind of threw the race thing in just to stimulate conversation, because I don't see that around where I live (where 98.7% of people are Caucasian Protestants).

Gabrielles blades · 07-27-2004, 12:14 AM

who claimed we were getting greater equality and fairness? its true in america over the past century that the differences between the sexes and the races in regards to equality have been dealt with somewhat, but there is always going to be an economic or social inequality in a capatalistic system such as ours.

the only way out of that would be communism - not the kind of communism in power today, but the type that was dreamt of earlier this century as the ideal. humans being as they are however could probably never implement this kind of system since we are essentially greedy and easily become jaded while always wanting more.

The Hierophant · 07-27-2004, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ilander:
The male is "supposed to be" (or pressured to be) the strong, dominant figure. The female is expected to conform to the male, and act supportively (if that is a word ). I kind of threw the race thing in just to stimulate conversation, because I don't see that around where I live (where 98.7% of people are Caucasian Protestants).

Ok then. Things arn't quite like that where I live.

Well, in short, no, you don't have to conform to this archetype. You don't have to think or do anything. If you disagree with an 'accepted social norm' where you live, and openly speak up about it then yes then you may experience significant pressure to shut up and fit in. But ask yourself; what's more important to you, feeling comfortable with yourself, or fitting in with others? Are the two one and the same for you?

If being true to your own beliefs means you are ostracised by those around you, it may be time to move on to a different, more understanding community. Or, shock horror, go it alone...

Ilander · 07-27-2004, 12:46 AM

Good points, both...but I have to admit, it's certainly strange in my area; the area's median income is around $15000 US, with nearly 20% unemployment (meaning a lot of government subsidy for those who don't pursue higher education)...and there's a constant stuggle going on between the "classic" and the "modern."

Underneath of it all, though, the "classic" is still dominant.

Aerich · 07-27-2004, 02:13 AM

Well if you don't like that, you need to move. Really. Attitudes and demographics vary a lot depending on where you live.

You need not be forced to live in a stereotype, if you truly do not want it. Yes, you'll probably have a job and family and all that, but you CAN dictate the circumstances to a large degree.

Re: gender, the pressure to be a provider (at the very least for yourself) is always there. In my area, that pressure is there as much for women of my generation as it is for men. I've never felt like I need to provide for a conforming girlfriend, partly because I'm not attracted to women who cannot think and do for themselves. Re: race, I'm not sure what kind of "racial" pressure you face in terms of expectations. At any rate, just because there's a cultural ideal doesn't mean you have to live up to it. Be a rebel if you so choose.

If you want to experience different cultures (and cultural expectations), move to a different part of the country (or world) or go to a college where there is a greater degree of diversity than there is in your region. Make the effort to meet and become friends with people outside your demographic category.

In short, don't feel like you have to conform to standards you don't set yourself or act in a way you don't want to. The mere fact you're asking the question means you are thinking about and challenging these conformist notions. Keep it up. Analyse them. Travel. Read books. Live somewhere else. Make a conscious effort to challenge the ideals and assumptions of your society, and think for yourself. Stagnation is a state of mind that you can combat by educating yourself (formally or informally), challenging yourself, and driving yourself. It's not a foregone conclusion.

::End of pep talk and two penn'orth of advice:: [img]smile.gif[/img]

The Hierophant · 07-27-2004, 02:30 AM

Bear in mind Ilander that 'classic' and 'modern' are very subjective terms, and differ in meaning depending on who you talk to. Indeed, 'equality' and 'fairness' are concepts that differ in meaning depending on your individual values.

I would say that there is more to life (and death) than economic statistics. Employment figures and reports on how 'the economy' is doing only mean anything if you value such social systems as 'the economy' as important. Keeping your belly full is all well and good, but no matter how you sit economically, your life will come to an end someday. You are as free now as you will be when sitting on the brink of death, remember that. The only difference is that you are still alive now to excercise this freedom, no matter how conservative and devoted to 'the way things have always been done' others might want you to be. How many 'I wish I had done such-and-such with my life... if only I'd taken more risks...' deathbed confessionals have you heard or heard of?

The traditions of your community are only that, traditions. Whether you believe them, and whether you follow them, is all up to you. Others can be beat you, chain you, lock you in a cage and burn you at the stake, but that still doesn't take away your freedom to believe whatever you want to believe. Don't be afraid of the pressure to conform, in the end all social convention is just someone elses belief against yours, no big deal.

If I may, why are you asking these questions?

edit: Haha. Yeah, what Aerich said... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-27-2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Gangrell · 07-27-2004, 02:51 AM

The world being equal and fair? Heh, not likely Ilander. Here in the states, nothing is really fair. You always see on television that people argue and sue others for just very petty things, taking the freedoms they have for granted and such. Athiests sueing school systems because they're 'forcing' their children to sing about Santa Claus (yes, I know, the horror

). You can even ask johnny, concerning jobs and such in his area, it's anything but fair.

Yea, I suppose you could say that men can act as the dominant figure in a relationship around here, standing up for their partner in a situation but not in the way you believe. Girls (women, excuse me) are their own persons here too, and a handful of them I know have more nerve than some of the guys do [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I'm with Hiero, you don't have to conform to anything Ilander. Where I live, there are two kinds of people, people who accept you and people who criticize you for who you are. Being as I am, I try to get along with everyone, even the 'outcasts' so to speak and if someone has a problem with it and if they know me, they know where they can stick their opinion. What you have to ask yourself is are you going to submit to that idealogy, or become your own individual and form your own unique way of thinking?

As you grow older and mature, if you stick with tradition and that one sided way of thinking, then it will stay with you up to the point where you won't accept anything else as it is.

Even economically speaking, it doesn't matter. No matter how much money you have in your wallet won't change your views any, only give you a hardy meal. Enjoy life and live it up, despite what others want you to think and enjoy diversity, you get more friends that way.

The choice is all up to you buddy.

Ilander · 07-27-2004, 10:42 AM

Thankfully I will be going to a more diverse Univeristy pretty soon! As for why I'm aking, Hierophant, I'm just genuinely sick of being expected to be the one who is in charge of everything---I have to be in charge of things in my relationship that make much more sense being shared responsibilities, and ultimately, it's my fault if I can't visit every day, regardless car trouble...

I suppose it's just girlfriend trouble behind all of this, but damnit, I don't want to set boundaries...not on myself, and not on her....

I'm sorry to muck it all up...I just wanted to try to veil my reasons as much as possible in an educated debate...

07-27-2004, 12:00 AM	#1
Ilander 20th Level Warrior Join Date: December 28, 2003 Location: Kentucky Age: 38 Posts: 2,820	I'm a young man from the conservative part of America, so I'm not sure that I'm getting a good viewpoint of things, but it seems to me that the world, much as it claims to be getting more equal and fairer, just seems to stagnate...I still have the exact same expectances hanging over me that my grandfather would have had...I just don't have the option of working in a machine-parts factory, and I'm more likely to be overwieght than malnourished... But do I still have to adhere to the classic gender and race expectations? What does Ironworks say? __________________ Is that what you really want to say?

07-27-2004, 12:14 AM	#3
Ilander 20th Level Warrior Join Date: December 28, 2003 Location: Kentucky Age: 38 Posts: 2,820	The male is "supposed to be" (or pressured to be) the strong, dominant figure. The female is expected to conform to the male, and act supportively (if that is a word ). I kind of threw the race thing in just to stimulate conversation, because I don't see that around where I live (where 98.7% of people are Caucasian Protestants). __________________ Is that what you really want to say?

07-27-2004, 12:46 AM	#6
Ilander 20th Level Warrior Join Date: December 28, 2003 Location: Kentucky Age: 38 Posts: 2,820	Good points, both...but I have to admit, it's certainly strange in my area; the area's median income is around $15000 US, with nearly 20% unemployment (meaning a lot of government subsidy for those who don't pursue higher education)...and there's a constant stuggle going on between the "classic" and the "modern." Underneath of it all, though, the "classic" is still dominant. __________________ Is that what you really want to say?

07-27-2004, 02:13 AM	#7
Aerich Lord Ao Join Date: May 27, 2004 Location: Canada Age: 42 Posts: 2,061	Well if you don't like that, you need to move. Really. Attitudes and demographics vary a lot depending on where you live. You need not be forced to live in a stereotype, if you truly do not want it. Yes, you'll probably have a job and family and all that, but you CAN dictate the circumstances to a large degree. Re: gender, the pressure to be a provider (at the very least for yourself) is always there. In my area, that pressure is there as much for women of my generation as it is for men. I've never felt like I need to provide for a conforming girlfriend, partly because I'm not attracted to women who cannot think and do for themselves. Re: race, I'm not sure what kind of "racial" pressure you face in terms of expectations. At any rate, just because there's a cultural ideal doesn't mean you have to live up to it. Be a rebel if you so choose. If you want to experience different cultures (and cultural expectations), move to a different part of the country (or world) or go to a college where there is a greater degree of diversity than there is in your region. Make the effort to meet and become friends with people outside your demographic category. In short, don't feel like you have to conform to standards you don't set yourself or act in a way you don't want to. The mere fact you're asking the question means you are thinking about and challenging these conformist notions. Keep it up. Analyse them. Travel. Read books. Live somewhere else. Make a conscious effort to challenge the ideals and assumptions of your society, and think for yourself. Stagnation is a state of mind that you can combat by educating yourself (formally or informally), challenging yourself, and driving yourself. It's not a foregone conclusion. ::End of pep talk and two penn'orth of advice:: [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Where there is a great deal of free speech, there is always a certain amount of foolish speech. - Winston S. Churchill

07-27-2004, 02:30 AM	#8
The Hierophant Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: May 10, 2002 Location: Dunedin, New Zealand. Age: 42 Posts: 2,860	Bear in mind Ilander that 'classic' and 'modern' are very subjective terms, and differ in meaning depending on who you talk to. Indeed, 'equality' and 'fairness' are concepts that differ in meaning depending on your individual values. I would say that there is more to life (and death) than economic statistics. Employment figures and reports on how 'the economy' is doing only mean anything if you value such social systems as 'the economy' as important. Keeping your belly full is all well and good, but no matter how you sit economically, your life will come to an end someday. You are as free now as you will be when sitting on the brink of death, remember that. The only difference is that you are still alive now to excercise this freedom, no matter how conservative and devoted to 'the way things have always been done' others might want you to be. How many 'I wish I had done such-and-such with my life... if only I'd taken more risks...' deathbed confessionals have you heard or heard of? The traditions of your community are only that, traditions. Whether you believe them, and whether you follow them, is all up to you. Others can be beat you, chain you, lock you in a cage and burn you at the stake, but that still doesn't take away your freedom to believe whatever you want to believe. Don't be afraid of the pressure to conform, in the end all social convention is just someone elses belief against yours, no big deal. If I may, why are you asking these questions? edit: Haha. Yeah, what Aerich said... [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 07-27-2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ] __________________ [img]\"hosted/Hierophant.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Strewth!

07-27-2004, 12:14 AM	#4
Gabrielles blades Baaz Draconian Join Date: April 26, 2002 Location: florida Age: 42 Posts: 761	who claimed we were getting greater equality and fairness? its true in america over the past century that the differences between the sexes and the races in regards to equality have been dealt with somewhat, but there is always going to be an economic or social inequality in a capatalistic system such as ours. the only way out of that would be communism - not the kind of communism in power today, but the type that was dreamt of earlier this century as the ideal. humans being as they are however could probably never implement this kind of system since we are essentially greedy and easily become jaded while always wanting more.

07-27-2004, 02:51 AM	#9
Gangrell Iron Throne Cult Join Date: January 2, 2003 Location: Big Castle in the Sky Age: 36 Posts: 4,835	The world being equal and fair? Heh, not likely Ilander. Here in the states, nothing is really fair. You always see on television that people argue and sue others for just very petty things, taking the freedoms they have for granted and such. Athiests sueing school systems because they're 'forcing' their children to sing about Santa Claus (yes, I know, the horror ). You can even ask johnny, concerning jobs and such in his area, it's anything but fair. Yea, I suppose you could say that men can act as the dominant figure in a relationship around here, standing up for their partner in a situation but not in the way you believe. Girls (women, excuse me) are their own persons here too, and a handful of them I know have more nerve than some of the guys do [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] I'm with Hiero, you don't have to conform to anything Ilander. Where I live, there are two kinds of people, people who accept you and people who criticize you for who you are. Being as I am, I try to get along with everyone, even the 'outcasts' so to speak and if someone has a problem with it and if they know me, they know where they can stick their opinion. What you have to ask yourself is are you going to submit to that idealogy, or become your own individual and form your own unique way of thinking? As you grow older and mature, if you stick with tradition and that one sided way of thinking, then it will stay with you up to the point where you won't accept anything else as it is. Even economically speaking, it doesn't matter. No matter how much money you have in your wallet won't change your views any, only give you a hardy meal. Enjoy life and live it up, despite what others want you to think and enjoy diversity, you get more friends that way. The choice is all up to you buddy.

07-27-2004, 10:42 AM	#10
Ilander 20th Level Warrior Join Date: December 28, 2003 Location: Kentucky Age: 38 Posts: 2,820	Thankfully I will be going to a more diverse Univeristy pretty soon! As for why I'm aking, Hierophant, I'm just genuinely sick of being expected to be the one who is in charge of everything---I have to be in charge of things in my relationship that make much more sense being shared responsibilities, and ultimately, it's my fault if I can't visit every day, regardless car trouble... I suppose it's just girlfriend trouble behind all of this, but damnit, I don't want to set boundaries...not on myself, and not on her.... I'm sorry to muck it all up...I just wanted to try to veil my reasons as much as possible in an educated debate... __________________ Is that what you really want to say?

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