Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Jaradu That's like asking, "If Americans are descendants of European immigrants, why are there still Europeans?"

Nah mate, that's apples and oranges. I think Cerek's point is a fair one. EVOLUTION implies a superiority and upward momentum for more complex species. Survival of the fittest and all that.

Well if the fittest survive and evolve, why do the weaker ones not evolve? And why would humans evolve weaker babies? An ape baby is far more sturdy and independent than the fragile human one.

And how about the eye that needs all it's components to work?

I still have fundamental problems with new species mutations, when gene locks prevent us breeding even mule that reproduces (A mule is the result of a donkey and an ass), let alone having a tiger and dog breed.

And what about regressive genes etc. Where deviations from the intended gene pattern reproduce at much lower rates. Dwarfs for example, reproduce at a much lower rate than normal humans. Everything about dna/genes etc seems to try and correct itself, rather than allow mutations to evolve.

Plus, no reproducible mutation has ever been recorded in human history. So it's all just theory.

Plus it still has not been explained to me how an ape can evolve a human nose that allows it to swim, and not drown, when attempting to engage in the activity it would use the new nose for, would kill it.

I cannot believe that if humans keep jumping off cliffs, one day we'll develop wings. It defies logic, and yet that is what supposedly happened with ape's noses, backs (which can't support bipedalism) etc.

I have too much doubt in evolution theory to accept it.

[Yorick]

Oh, and then there's the platypus.

[SpiritWarrior]

Which is just one of the oddest looking creatures I have ever seen. It's all about the beak...

[machinehead]

Yeah - it lays eggs just like it's mammel like reptilian ancestors.

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally Posted by Yorick I agree. But faith is logical. sp?(illogical?) Is it crazy to get on an airplane, having faith that the mechanics and pilots have all done their job, and it will fly? We'd call a person with flight-fear "illogical" for NOT having such faith. How about trust and faith in a relationship? Trust is built on shared life experiences. So is faith.

Maybe i'm not following as I don't see a connection between these examples and the context. I've seen a plane fly before so I know it is possible. There is no faith required in the fact that it can get off the ground, and that the people can get it off the ground. They have proven they can, and if I don't believe them they can show me. There may be a level of trust involved, such as the trust you place in the pilot being sober and the company who hired him being meticulous..?

I, personally, wouldn't call a person with "flight-fear" illogical, but simply "fearful". Maybe, if it's a phobia I would possibly call them "irrational" since phobic feelings are usually chronic and insatable. Their fears, no matter what I think of them, would have some evidential merit based on the rare times a plane crashes with the results being catastrophic. In essence, I would understand it.

Have I missed the point entirely here?

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Yorick Nah mate, that's apples and oranges. I think Cerek's point is a fair one. EVOLUTION implies a superiority and upward momentum for more complex species. Survival of the fittest and all that. Well if the fittest survive and evolve, why do the weaker ones not evolve? And why would humans evolve weaker babies? An ape baby is far more sturdy and independent than the fragile human one. And how about the eye that needs all it's components to work? I still have fundamental problems with new species mutations, when gene locks prevent us breeding even mule that reproduces (A mule is the result of a donkey and an ass), let alone having a tiger and dog breed. And what about regressive genes etc. Where deviations from the intended gene pattern reproduce at much lower rates. Dwarfs for example, reproduce at a much lower rate than normal humans. Everything about dna/genes etc seems to try and correct itself, rather than allow mutations to evolve. Plus, no reproducible mutation has ever been recorded in human history. So it's all just theory. Plus it still has not been explained to me how an ape can evolve a human nose that allows it to swim, and not drown, when attempting to engage in the activity it would use the new nose for, would kill it. I cannot believe that if humans keep jumping off cliffs, one day we'll develop wings. It defies logic, and yet that is what supposedly happened with ape's noses, backs (which can't support bipedalism) etc. I have too much doubt in evolution theory to accept it.

That's good points. It's hard to grasp how something could start as a cell and evolve into a complex creature like we have today.

What would truly sate my curiosity is if scientists managed to take some cells and rapid grow them into something more evolved. Not cloning; really taking cells and just letting them grow into something new.

Maybe it's been done already, I don't know. But I'd like to see it.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally Posted by Yorick Nah mate, that's apples and oranges. I think Cerek's point is a fair one. EVOLUTION implies a superiority and upward momentum for more complex species. Survival of the fittest and all that. Well if the fittest survive and evolve, why do the weaker ones not evolve? And why would humans evolve weaker babies? An ape baby is far more sturdy and independent than the fragile human one.

I was thinking the other day how we as a species really got the short end of the stick when it comes to really cool abilities. We're fairly slow, can't fly, can't see well in the dark, and can't see in the infrared or UV spectrums.

Then I realized- we don't need to. We evolved in a very specific way- mental strengths and abilities at the expense of physical ones.

And how about the eye that needs all it's components to work?

What about it?

Plus, no reproducible mutation has ever been recorded in human history. So it's all just theory.

Then where do black people come from?

Besides, all the really cool stuff happened before human history was recorded. We've been recording history for what, a few thousand years? I'm talking about a few million years.

Plus it still has not been explained to me how an ape can evolve a human nose that allows it to swim, and not drown, when attempting to engage in the activity it would use the new nose for, would kill it. I cannot believe that if humans keep jumping off cliffs, one day we'll develop wings. It defies logic, and yet that is what supposedly happened with ape's noses, backs (which can't support bipedalism) etc.

I'm afraid I'm having trouble here. Can you please be more specific?

I have too much doubt in evolution theory to accept it.

That's the great thing about science... It doesn't care if you accept it. It just is

[dplax]

About the evolution - survival of the fittest:

There are fish in the deep oceans that have survived almost unchanged as a species for 300 million years. Humans have been around for far less than that.

The only lifeform to be everywhere on the planet and to survive everywhere are bacteria. Arctic ice has them, magma vents in the deep oceans have them. Humans couldn't survive without them.

As for whether evolution produces the best...no, it just produces those who can survive best under the conditions of the planet. Dinosaurs couldn't survive the meteorite that plunged global temperatures and they died out. If climatological conditions radically changed humans could just as easily be decimated.

[dplax]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca To really go back on topic... Who cares about a bunch of thugs hellbent on blowing themselves up? We kill them at a much higher rate than they kill us, ( we overkill them SOBs) and there are more of us then them. Terrorists are a lesson in futile.

The thing is, they don't really care if they die or not. If one of them kills one of you before dying then he'll die a hero. It's all about a different point of view. We are talking of people who are willing to kill themselves by flying a plane into a tower, just because they believe that it is something good that they are doing. In their personal beliefs what they are doing is good and what those who are against them are doing is evil. They believe in that at least as strongly as you believe in whatever you believe in.

Of course there are those who would try to abuse their beliefs and use them for their own means. History has shown that that can be done with any religion, or even any beliefs (ex: political) people have. It is easy to sacrifice someone for a cause, knowing that they are willing to do it. American soldiers are being sacrificed for a cause in Iraq, just as Palestinians are sent by a bomb-maker to an Israeli market to die for a cause or thousands of crusaders were sent to the Holy Land to die for a cause. They either believe in what they are doing, or they have a strong enough reason to not want to appear to not believe (be it fear, coercion,...).

[dplax]

Originally Posted by Luvian What would truly sate my curiosity is if scientists managed to take some cells and rapid grow them into something more evolved. Not cloning; really taking cells and just letting them grow into something new. Maybe it's been done already, I don't know. But I'd like to see it.

Chernobyl, Hiroshima, Nagasaki,...on a planetary scale those were small events, yet they produced some pretty radical changes in those who were unlucky enough to survive.

A well-aimed solar eruption from the Sun could easily wash over the earth and bath us in radiation. Chances are statistically low for that, but over millions of years it can easily happen.