09-07-2008, 11:38 PM | #71 |
Zartan
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
I'll join in the other discusion if it's about sharing open ideas.
It's easy to surmise how no religion can be trusted as "true". Nobody can know for sure if it all wasn't just made up, distorted, taken out of context, or whatever. What does intrigue me is how many supposedly seperate religions all find a common threads in valueing Compassion, Justice, and Community. Science cannot prove compassion and only helps dole out justice. Obviously as a community we haven't made it on science alone.
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09-08-2008, 12:06 AM | #72 | ||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Ah but that's a question that presupposes God was made, and had a beginning, neither of which are believed theists, so the question cannot be asked of them.
You need to start with the question of "who or what is God" and take it from there. My belief is, God just "is". An eternal awareness outside time and space who, to quote a Jewish writer, "blinked and saw eternity". Quote:
That said, certain things cannot be explained by science alone. "What is my purpose?", "What does love feel like?", "Who am I?". These things are not for the realm of science. Science explains how something works, it doesn't always explain why it should work! Sciences like chemistry and physics may deal with the how, but theology deals with the who. Quote:
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09-08-2008, 12:15 AM | #73 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
If I recall correctly it may even be the official position of the church. In Christianity you have literalists, who believe the Genesis story happened exactly as written, and others who take it as symbolic or sequencial: Let there be light = big bang, planet forming, plants, animals then humans etc etc. I take a literalist perspective, as I see no reason why not. If tomorrow evolution theory knocked me over the head with irrefutable proof, I could quite easily switch to a symbolist theology, as it doesn't really make much of a difference. I believe God created us either way, but science helps explain how. I just accept the theories of creation scientists over evolution scientists (yes, creation science is an extra-biblical set of theories based on science, not just Genesis...) I have too much doubt in evolution, so by default choose literal creationism, but plenty of Christians and Jews are evolutionist-creationists. |
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09-08-2008, 12:31 AM | #74 | |
Registered Member
Iron Throne Cult
Join Date: August 27, 2004
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 4,888
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
This has been an interesting read and several posts have been made throughout that I would like to answer or counter. I will agree that organized religion has cause a lot of problems in the past and continues to do so today (thought not to the degree it did before). However, I certainly challenge the notion that "religion causes more death per year than anything else, including disease". Lav, do you honostly believe more people are killed in America because of religion than auto accidents? Do you really think religion causes more death in Ethiopia than famine or disease? Exactly how is religion responsible for so many global deaths? The other main point I wanted to counter was evolution. I've looked into this a bit to see what evidence is available and how solid it is. I found several key questions remained unanswered. The most obvious question is, if humans evolved from apes (or a similar animal), then why do we still have apes? This is not a straw-man argument. The founding core for any type of evolution within a species is that the evolved form is better equipped to survive and the non-evolved forms eventually die out due to their lack of adaptability. If this true, then the apes should have died off a long time ago after the evolved human form developed. That hasn't happened. Second, while there is significant evidence for evolution within, there is little to no evidence of evolution between different species. The only example that comes close is the belief that modern day birds "evolved" from the dinosaurs. This is based on the existence of extraneous bones found in many dinosaurs that scientists believe eventually evolved into wings due to the similarity in their shape. That still doesn't answer how archeopterax(sp?) and other early birds suddenly developed a feathered body instead of regular skin. Believing that certain bones began to extend and develop into wings is one thing. Completely changing their body composition is another thing entirely. Finally, despite the similarities between apes and humans (and the fact that the supposedly "inferior" forms still exist in plentiful numbers), the other problem with evolution is the missing link. Scientists admit they still have not discovered the final link in the evolutionary change between ape to man. Until the chain is completed, the evidence is incomplete.
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09-08-2008, 12:34 AM | #75 | |||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
Religion is more often misused by people to manipulate them into achieving a certain end, than being innately at fault. At the end of the day, human fear, greed and hate - things many religions try to limit - cause wars. So if Hindu's kill Christians because they're converting, is it religion that's the issue, or fear and jealousy? If Sunni Muslims kill Shi'a Muslims, is it really because of Islam, or because of lust for power, hate and/or fear? Quote:
It's a utopian ideal that would only work if human free will was removed - which is often what the governments tried to remove. Mass conformity. Brain-washing. Torture and intimidation. The human spirit needs to be free to make mistakes. Quote:
"Belief" is the answer we find to be truest. |
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09-08-2008, 12:40 AM | #76 | |
Jack Burton
Join Date: May 31, 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 5,854
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
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09-08-2008, 12:54 AM | #77 | ||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
A strong, vibrant faith is only gotten by asking hard questions. By re-evaluating belief and by continually examining ones life. I love discussing faith because it often times allows me to think thinks in new ways which helps my faith become stronger. If I get hit with a curve-ball, as I have many times in my life, I then seek out an answer. FAITH, is strongest when maintaining belief during a period of doubt. When you come out the other side, the belief is stronger and more assured because it was tested. I mean, a Christian who is dedicating their life to serving God has a greater need to be certain God is who we believe him to be, than an agnostic. Who wants to live a lie? I have asked myself more difficult questions that you could possibly imagine. My faith as a result has been refined in the fire of difficulty, pain and doubt. Quote:
Is it crazy to get on an airplane, having faith that the mechanics and pilots have all done their job, and it will fly? We'd call a person with flight-fear "illogical" for NOT having such faith. How about trust and faith in a relationship? Trust is built on shared life experiences. So is faith. |
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09-08-2008, 01:11 AM | #78 | ||||
Silver Dragon
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
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You don't even have to read the text, just scroll down slowly and look at the images. That looks pretty concrete to me. |
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09-08-2008, 01:27 AM | #79 |
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: April 9, 2001
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 68
Posts: 630
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Also Dromaeosauridae dinosaurs such as velociraptor had feathers.
http://www.physorg.com/news109516799.html |
09-08-2008, 01:53 AM | #80 |
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: April 9, 2001
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 68
Posts: 630
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Humans evolved in Africa not everywhere at once, and then migrated. Apes fill limited ecological niches in areas remote from concentrated human habitation. Where there are substantial human populations they are pushed out or die out. I think they are all endangered and now survive only because areas have been set aside for them.
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