Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir Not his fault. I know who's fault the wrongs in the world are, it's humans. But 'he' allows it to happen. There's a big difference between causing something and letting it happen. As for our choices, disease and famine are no-ones choices, they're forced upon you, as you'd well know after what you've been through.

Actually I think famine may well be a result of human choices. So you had "famine" in Ethiopia, but warlords prevented food getting in to maintain control, and the west dumped wheat in the ocean and paid farmers NOT TO GROW food to maintain price value.

The problem with capitalism, is some must go without to maintain low supply and high demand, (Iran are calling for Opec to CUT Oil production, would you believe) so I'm pretty sure this falls into human choice. Especially since in a world without borders, we could all just migrate away from a local famine. But who made the borders? Humans.

I think that the misery that befalls humans is terribly upsetting to God, but it's the tough choice he made in allowing free will.

Every parent must go through it when they let their kid have more freedom. "Oh but they'll get hurt" yes they will, but that's part of freedom.

And free will is the only way to have love. Love can only exist if the potential for rejection exists. It has to be a choice, not a programmed obligation.

[Lavindathar]

Originally Posted by Yorick Actually I think famine may well be a result of human choices. So you had "famine" in Ethiopia, but warlords prevented food getting in to maintain control, and the west dumped wheat in the ocean and paid farmers NOT TO GROW food to maintain price value. The problem with capitalism, is some must go without to maintain low supply and high demand, (Iran are calling for Opec to CUT Oil production, would you believe) so I'm pretty sure this falls into human choice. Especially since in a world without borders, we could all just migrate away from a local famine. But who made the borders? Humans. I think that the misery that befalls humans is terribly upsetting to God, but it's the tough choice he made in allowing free will. Every parent must go through it when they let their kid have more freedom. "Oh but they'll get hurt" yes they will, but that's part of freedom. And free will is the only way to have love. Love can only exist if the potential for rejection exists. It has to be a choice, not a programmed obligation.

Yorick, that sounded so stereotypically American to me, you just wouldn't believe...

hehe

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by dplax Cerek: suppose that it was a miracle. Do you have any way to know that it was the God you believe in that sent it? I'm not trying to question your faith, just wondering how you make the connection between a miraculous recovery and your beliefs. Edit: I was of course referring to your recovery and not your father's death, you just posted while I was thinking on how to phrase my post.

Do I know 100% sure it was the Christian God? No more than scientists know 100% sure that gravity exists.

I do attribute it to the Christian God for two reasons. One, obviously, is my faith in God. Second, I learned several days later that several hundred people were praying on my behalf while I was in surgery, asking God to spare and heal me. My ex-wife's aunt is Catholic. She was burning a prayer candle and offering Hail Mary's on my behalf. When the surgeon told my mom and ex-wife the news, they broke down (as you might imagine). My mom asked everyone in the OR Waiting Room to prayer with her for God to spare me and a roomful of complete strangers joined hands and prayed to God on my behalf. My ex-wife went out in the parking lot and literally fell to her knees, while crying out for God to spare my life.

God's Word tells us He listens when His followers call out to Him. So, yes, I believe God answered those hundreds of prayers being offered at once on my behalf.

[Cerek]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca I'm certain most all gods and religions are little more than myth and in some cases simply a fraud designed to control people or create wealth. I have expirienced grace, witnessed miracles, and have lots of faith. We all have the things religion claims to offer within ourselves. No supernatural creators, holy books, preachers, or tithes required.

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Yes we do. I too have experienced all of these things yet without the complications or having to do it "in the name of" any organized religion.

What do you have faith in if you believe most all gods are myths? To whom or what do you attribute the miracles you have witnessed?

[dplax]

Originally Posted by Cerek Do I know 100% sure it was the Christian God? No more than scientists know 100% sure that gravity exists. I do attribute it to the Christian God for two reasons. One, obviously, is my faith in God. Second, I learned several days later that several hundred people were praying on my behalf while I was in surgery, asking God to spare and heal me. My ex-wife's aunt is Catholic. She was burning a prayer candle and offering Hail Mary's on my behalf. When the surgeon told my mom and ex-wife the news, they broke down (as you might imagine). My mom asked everyone in the OR Waiting Room to prayer with her for God to spare me and a roomful of complete strangers joined hands and prayed to God on my behalf. My ex-wife went out in the parking lot and literally fell to her knees, while crying out for God to spare my life. God's Word tells us He listens when His followers call out to Him. So, yes, I believe God answered those hundreds of prayers being offered at once on my behalf.

I can accept that. I haven't been in that situation (and wouldn't want to be) so I can't say what I would believe in.

(While I drop an apple and it doesn't fall upwards, I'll believe in gravity though. )

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir Brilliant This is very true, from my personal experiences. How would the christian world react if someone discovered something, I don't know what, from years back which said that it was all a rouse? To take a brilliant example, say, a page from the bible saying 'To my darling Candy; All characters in this book are purely ficticious and any resemblance to characters living or dead is purely coincidental' (). Instantly, the pope would call it blasphemous, people would kick off about it, it'd be some form of hoax or something, and we'd all be home in time for cakes. Faith is adaptable, but not changeable. It can be tweaked. But to denounce it or change it radically is impossible - and refusing to do so would be, like Jaradu said, be called faith, and rewarded. Faith to something which, may well be wrong.

Not so bro, you're putting the cart before the horse. We believe because of the information we experience. We don't shape the experiences to fit our beliefs. (At least I don't, I am not God)

Let's look at precedents: People in ancient Sumer have a set of organised religious beliefs. Out of that, Abraham stumbles onto a new and radical revelation of God, ("yo, all the characters in your theology are purely fictitious") and lo' monotheism is (re)born.

Christianity itself is a radical change in the Jewish faith. God appears in human form, saying "I love you". 2 billion Christians currently follow a Jewish messiah, 14 million Jews do not.

People DO change their beliefs when new information is presented to them.

If tomorrow, irrefutable, inarguable evidence was presented the Jesus was not who he said he was, then, I'm certain, many who seek truth, would adjust accordingly, while a minority would not. The fact is, when you look at the evidence there IS a strong case for Jesus being God. No of course it's not irrefutable or proven beyond doubt to us, because that's where faith comes in. There NEEDS to be room for doubt, for faith to exist.

But, for those of us who believe, we have more faith in our beliefs than our doubts.
We believe because it seems true!

Just because Cloverfield was set in New York, does that mean in 2000 years people are going to believe it happened, just because Archeologists found the ruins of the statue of liberty? I could easily believe that Jesus existed, but if he did, he was a human. He was a con man. A fraud who convinced a lot of people. If only Derren Brown lived 2000 years ago. We'd have a totally different life of Derrenism. The stories of the bible were set in the world we live in, to make them more accessible for the reader, complete with what, at the time, we'd now call 'Pop Culture' references. Writers and novelists use them all the time.

Bro, how do you think we tell historical works for ancient stories? There is a methodology in place for discerning such things, which includes archaeology, corroboration with other sources, internal referencing etc etc.

What Cloverfield confirms is that there was a New York City, a Statue of liberty, and that the Statue of Liberty was an important symbol to the people.

No other source confirms an attack by an alien on the date alleged in the film, and unless New York IS destroyed, archaeology would refute it's historicity.

The fact is the bible is not ONE book, but 66 works, written over a 2000 odd year history. The works reference each other and are supported by archaeology.

Also, historical narrative in fiction, is a literary device invented much closer to modern times. No other ancient fiction was written in this style. Either it's a huge leap in writing development, or it reflects the style of writing of it's contemporaries - nonfiction.

Additionally, the books of mosaic law served as the LAW of the Jewish people. It's like arguing that the U.S. constitution is fiction. It's obviously not. Why would anyone invent the U.S. constitution? It's not like they were selling books back then.

There are POEMS and SONGS in the bible as well, that convey their own truth, just as say a Bob Dylan song may contain truth.

Here's some more: http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

There have been hundreds of books written on the subject of the evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and these evidences are many and varied. Most people today, unfortunately, have not read any of these books. In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world. Nevertheless the Bible writers claimed repeatedly that they were transmitting the very Word of God, infallible and authoritative in the highest degree. This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both. But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, then what hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world? If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified. Fulfilled Prophecies The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away. For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later. There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects. There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation. Unique Historical Accuracy Ebla Tablet. Courtesy of Associates for Biblical Research. Learn more about Archaeology and the Bible The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said: "No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries." Scientific Accuracy Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include: * Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22) * Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9) * Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7) * Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7) * Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22) * Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27) * Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11) * Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6) * Gravitational field (Job 26:7) * and many others. These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts. It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems. Unique Structure The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout. The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will continually find remarkable structural and mathematical patterns woven throughout its fabric, with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion. The one consistent theme of the Bible, developing in grandeur from Genesis to Revelation, is God's great work in the creation and redemption of all things, through His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The amount of inconsistencies in the bible has already been addressed. But there's no point racking off more bible verses. Because we can all find one that contradicts what the last person will have posted.

Who addressed it? It has not been addressed. People who say the bible has inconsistencies do not understand sequence for one thing! Do amendments make the U.S. constitution inconsistent? If you insert an overriding clause in a contract, doesn't it override what it's overriding?

This is what I was saying at the start of this thread, that only by taking the bible OUT OF CONTEXT can people support extreme hate, or weird cutlish beliefs, or allege inconsistencies.

The bible has to be read as a whole, or with an understanding of context! Yes, there are MYSTERIES, but mysteries become apparent with new knowledge. The Chords of Orion unraveling was a mystery to ancient writers, that is now apparent due to technology.

This, however, is a very interesting point. And gives me something to think on. It's the first time that someone in this thread has managed to do that! So well done

I do my best... thanks mate!

Not at all. I believe in science just as strongly as you believe in Christ, and I'd never ask you to denounce your faith until we prove otherwise.

I believe in Science AND in Christ. One belief helps the other.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar Yorick, that sounded so stereotypically American to me, you just wouldn't believe... hehe

And yet I'm an Aussie married to a Brit.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Luvian Excellent points Yorick. My position wasn't that Variol should stop, but to encourage him to do some research, find some hard questions to come back with and also learn something new in the process.

Agreed. It's a beautiful thing if we can all learn. Hopefully people who criticise the bible will do the same thing and read it as a way of research.

I have to admit I don't know that much myself about organized religions since I stopped practicing after my first confession when I was a kid. If I were to try and refute an organized religion my arguments would most likely be full of holes because I barely know the subject.

I know that my experience of church as an adult is radically different to when I was a child. No comparison. I appreciate the honest appraisal though my friend. As ever: respect.

Edit: Might as well share a little anecdote while I'm at it. About two years ago, I spent 4 months helping out at my local church's soup kitchen. The other people who worked there (mostly poor, uneducated and penniless people, but who none the less liked to help others even if they couldn't afford it) were absolutely nice human beings with more dedication and compassion I will ever have. But the priest? Oh, how I hated him. Why? Because he hated the homeless people we fed in his basement and only tolerated us because we did all the maintenance and chores of his church for free. He thought of them as bums and lowlifes, people who stunk up his church for his real churchgoers who visited the main floor. At one time on a nice summer day he called the police because an homeless man who had nowhere to go (they were not welcome in the main church) had lain down on the grass to enjoy the breeze and watch the clouds. He wasn't out front where people could see him, he was out back where only employees and soup visitors entered by. Can you believe it? He had him thrown out by the cops the moment his butt touched the grass. (He had an underling whose sole job was to spy on us.) I hope he at least didn't charge the poor guy with anything. There's no real moral to this, maybe beside you don't always find compassion where you would expect it.

This is a terrible story, and it upsets me to hear it. Even worse is that it's not so unusual.

But then preachers are human. I have stories about my experiences with preachers that... well they'd take days to tell. I have definitely been through the fire more than once, but I tell you, I follow God, and not the man, and the more failures I see in preachers, the more I'm reminded that God uses IMPERFECT people to spread his word, and that includes you and I.

Secondly Christianity is a relationship, not an test paper. We all have strengths, and we all have weaknesses in various areas. I don't know the guy, but hopefully he was a really good and caring pastor to those people who were IN his church, even if he didn't have a heart for those outside it.

Lastly, when i do get shocked by stories such as this, I have to be careful I don't judge them too much, for I'm sure I have turned people completely off the God I love by my many failures.

I'm sorry you had to experience that.

Here's what the bible says about the homeless:


James 1:27
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


Leviticus 25
35 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.


Leviticus 23
22 " 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.' "


Deuteronomy 15
7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.


Job 29
11 Whoever heard me spoke well of me,
and those who saw me commended me,

12 because I rescued the poor who cried for help,
and the fatherless who had none to assist him.

13 The man who was dying blessed me;
I made the widow's heart sing.


Psalm 35:10
My whole being will exclaim, "Who is like you, O LORD ? You rescue the poor from those too strong for them, the poor and needy from those who rob them."


Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.


and finally:


James 2
My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

[Stratos]

Originally Posted by Cerek The question of "how much evidence is enough" cuts both ways, Stratos. Non-believers ask for "evidence". Believers provide personal experiences and/or events they have read or heard about. And the non-believer almost universally dismisses it as coincidence, happenstance or anomaly that must have a logical explanation if the person of faith would only look at it objectively. Note that, in that case, the burden of proof is on the non-believer, since they are the one discounting the claim, they are the ones that have the burden of providing an alternative explanation that can be backed up with more than "just coincidence(sp?).

There is a small problem here; it is the experiencer that sits with all the relevant data. The data is rarely transferable to the critic or sceptic, often being subjecti in nature, yet he is expected to provide an alternative explanation. As such, the argumentation will always be biased in favour of the one making miracelous claims. The sceptic might be able to disprove the claim but it's unlikely; he has not to go by in his investigation. It might be wrong of him here to claim the experiencer is lying, but fairly OK to remain sceptic.

So, let me ask all the non-believers here a very simple question. What would it take for you to believe God exists? What sign would you need to see to convince you He is real? This is not a trick question, this is an honost attempt to determine what evidence you would consider sufficient.

Any of the fancy tricks God does in the OT. Or simply an religiois experience that I would peg on God.

Fair enough. I had a miracle in my own life in 1996 (there have been many smaller ones, but those would not be counted as such by non-believers). I was diagnosed with a chronic illness called Chron's disease at the age of 21. For those unfamiliar with it, let me just say it was one nasty beast. The immune system goes into overdrive and begins attacking parts of the body - primarily the digestive tract. MOST of the cases occur in the colon (large intestine) but can actually manifest anywhere in the digestive tract (my ex-wife knew a lady with Chron's in her mouth and throat). In 1996, the disease launched an especially vicious attack on my body, killing over 95% of my colon. The whole thing ruptured and my body began pumping waste into my abdominal cavity. I can assure you the pain is indescribable (I can honostly say I know how a samurai feels when he commits hari-kari, because that is effectively what my body did, without using a sword). Through a series of events, it took more than 30 hours before I was taken into an operating room. During the surgery, my body was so contaminated that one of the veteran OR nurses had to leave the room because they became ill at the very sight of what happened. After 18 hours of surgery, the surgeon came out to my mom and (then) wife. When they asked how I was doing, the surgeons exact words were "Do you believe in miracles?" They both said "Of course we do". "Then you better start praying for your miracle right now, because that is the only thing that is going to save him." The surgeon went on to explain that he had done his best, but the damage was just too extensive. Peritonitis was running rampant throughout my abdomen and internal organs. It was only a matter of time before the poison entered my bloodstream and would be spread throughout the rest of my body. Once that happened, it would be over. There would be nothing that could save me. He told them I had roughly 72 hours to live before the peritonitis spread throughout my system. I have talked to several doctors, PAs and RNs since then (I worked in a hospital at the time) and asked them if the doctor's diagnosis was correct. Every single one of them has answered "Yes. With peritonitis that widespread for that long, it should have entered your bloodstream. That is the natural progression and there is no medical reason for the poison to NOT spread to your blood." So, you see, I did ask other experts if there was an alternative explanation and the response has been uniformly "No. The peritonitis should have spread to your bloodstream and that would have been fatal." While I doubt my experience will convince any non-believers, I provided what was asked for - a miracle in which alternative explanations had been explored.

Thank you for telling us this story. I think you've told it before on TheOasisForums.

People do make seemingly miracelous recoveries every now and then, but there is no appearant way to determine what causes this; is it natural or divine intervention? Physicians are not infallible, the go by experience and statistics.

If miracles exist, they strike randomly, without rhyme or reason. For every one person who survive miracelously, there is a hundred stories of those that didn't.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Ahh, the book of James. Definitely up there in my favs. I encourage everyone to read it. It's short, and he doesn't mess around. He has a way of telling it straight out.

1 Thessalonians is another great and short book. Paul sets the right example here. It can be used as a model for so many things today. He taught them about Christ, but never took their money (although he could have). He worked making tents to sustain himself.