Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar First thing you'd say is - "Ok, but why? Where is your proof?" Where is yours Variol? Apart from a storybook created by the Romans to unite a world. And lets face it, I think even over 50% of the Christian believers admit the Bible is a load of bollocks and none of it ever happened.

Anthropology -
Creation myths in every culture,
Flood myths in every culture
Sudden simultaneous appearance of complex civilisations at time frame consistent with Genesis.

Archeology - evidence in the Australian desert of a sudden continental flood.
The existence of diamonds, which require pressure to form from coal (water pressure?)
100's of archeological digs that confirm events in the Biblical books of Kings and Chronicles.

Literary - the Bible is the most verified work in human possession, with the new Testament having 25,000 manuscript copies dating back to 50-80 years after it was written. New finds such as Dead Sea Scrolls, being consistent with previously posessed works.

History - The Jewish calendar is set to the alleged date of creation. Jewish lineage lists go from father to son, back from Jesus, to David, to Adam. All generations accounted for.

Geology - a set amount of dust from space settles on earth each year. The same amount falls on the moon. This is measurable. The moon has no air, no wind to blow off the dust so it remains in stasis. Armstrongs foot sank into an amount of dust consistent with a young earth theory, not an old earth theory.

Astronomy -
The Bible details astronomical events we can only see WILL happen in the future thanks to new telescopes. The "Belt of Orion" is, it is found out, in the process of separating as predicted in Job - the oldest book of the old testament.

Physics -
Einsteins theory of relativity. Time slows down in relation to increased speed.
If 99.9% of matter was formed within the first two nanoseconds of the big bang, and it all moved out at unthinkably fast speeds, who is to say, billions of years of development occurred within a few days, relative to the speed it was traveling?

But these are all off the top of my head.

Here's more:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. We have listed statements on this page that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many of them were listed in the Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere. Many concepts and notes on this page are adapted from ideas and statements that appear in The DEFENDER’S Study Bible.[1] Paleontology Statements Consistent With Paleontology * Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1½ chapters about dinosaurs is a lot—since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible. (Actually reading the Bible would help, though. smile ) Click this sentence to see our Dinosaurs page if you would like more information in this subject area. Astronomy Statements Consistent With Astronomy * The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples. Genesis 22:17 Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. Jeremiah 33:22 “As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.” Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. We have seen estimates of 1021 stars—which is a lot of stars.[2] (The number of grains of sand on the earth’s seashores is estimated to be 1025. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?) * The Bible also says that each star is unique. 1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.) * The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe. Jeremiah 31:35,36 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.” * The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space. Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing. Meteorology Statements Consistent With Meteorology * The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere. Ecclesiastes 1:6 The wind goes toward the south, And turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, And comes again on its circuit. * The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics. Job 28:25 To establish a weight for the wind, And apportion the waters by measure. The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.[1] (If you are a physics enthusiast, please ignore our omission of the terms mass, gravity, and density from this comment.) Biology Statements Consistent With Biology * The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood. Leviticus 17:11 ‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1] * The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism. Genesis 1:11,12 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1] * The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return. * It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC. Proverbs 12:4 An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 14:30 A sound heart is life to the body, But envy is rottenness to the bones. Proverbs 15:30 The light of the eyes rejoices the heart, And a good report makes the bones healthy. Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are like a honeycomb, Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones. Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart does good, like medicine, But a broken spirit dries the bones. Anthropology Statements Consistent With Anthropology * We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men. Job 30:5,6 They were driven out from among men, They shouted at them as at a thief. They had to live in the clefts of the valleys, In caves of the earth and the rocks. Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.) Hydrology Statements Consistent With Hydrology * The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3] Psalm 135:7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries. Jeremiah 10:13 When He utters His voice, There is a multitude of waters in the heavens: “And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, He brings the wind out of His treasuries.” In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1] Job 36:27-29 For He draws up drops of water, Which distill as rain from the mist, Which the clouds drop down And pour abundantly on man. Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds, The thunder from His canopy? This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1] * The Bible describes the recirculation of water. Ecclesiastes 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; To the place from which the rivers come, There they return again. Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, * The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds. Job 26:8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds, Yet the clouds are not broken under it. Job 37:11 Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds; He scatters His bright clouds. * Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science. Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Job 38:16 Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths? We discuss the “fountains of the great deep” further in our Creation Versus Evolution page. Geology Statements Consistent With Geology * The Bible describes the Earth’s crust (along with a comment on astronomy). Jeremiah 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD.” Although some scientists claim that they have now measured the size of the universe, it is interesting to note that every human attempt to drill through the earth’s crust to the plastic mantle beneath has, thus far, ended in failure.[1] * The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical. Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square. The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens. This brings up an important historical note related to this topic. Many people are aware of the conflict between Galileo and the Roman Catholic Pope, Paul V. After publishing A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World, Galileo was summoned to Rome, where he was forced to renounce his findings. (At that time, “theologians” of the Roman Catholic Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the universe, and to assert otherwise was deemed heretical.) We could not find any place in the Bible that claims that the Earth is flat, or that it is the center of the universe. History shows that this conflict, which took place at the time of the Inquisition, was part of a power struggle. As a result, scientific and biblical knowledge became casualties—an effect we still feel to this day. Physics Statements Consistent With Physics * The Bible suggests the presence of nuclear processes like those we associate with nuclear weaponry. This is certainly not something that could have been explained in 67 AD using known scientific principles (when Peter wrote the following verse). 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. * The television is a practical (if not always worthwhile smile ) device that uses electromagnetic waves (which transmit its video signal). The Bible contains passages that describe something like television—something that allows everyone on earth see a single event. (Note: such passages typically refer to the end of time. It may not be long before all of us learn for sure whether the Bible is true or not.) Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Revelation 11:9-11 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Things In The Bible That Science Can Not Explain The purpose of this page is not to explain what a great science text the Bible is, but to show that it is consistent with scientific facts. Still, the Bible mentions some things that we can not explain. Yet, if God is really God, He should have the ability to do some things we can not explain. In the last 100 years (and especially in the last ten) scientists discovered many proofs that confirm the Bible’s accuracy. Since these proofs support the accuracy of the text we can understand scientifically, it makes sense to trust the Bible’s text that we can not yet understand. (For example, how many people knew what hydrothermal vents were 30 years ago?) If you would like to see the proof we have for the accuracy of the Bible, click on the link below. Click here to learn some facts that confirm the Bible's accuracy How Do You Know The Bible Is True? If you like reading books, a good one that addresses the facts that support Christianity is Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. There is an advantage to a book—it does not change as a page on the Internet can. Plus, a million copies of Paul Little’s book have been printed (about 40 times the number required to be called a “best seller”) which proves it is not an isolated person’s opinion. green bar gold bar References [1] The DEFENDER’S Study Bible, Word Publishing, Grand Rapids, Michigan (1995). [2] The Number of Stars [3] The Hydrologic Cycle [4] Submarine Volcanic Ecosystems (An article on hydrothermal vents.)

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Cerek A good example of adaptable faith is Jim Bakker. I saw an interview he gave after being released from prison and have to admit I was very impressed. When asked about the lifestyle he and Tammy Faye led before prison, Jim answered that it was HIS fault. HE had taken one verse of the Bible (where God promises to reward those faithful to Him) and used it to convince himself he deserved all the wealth and luxury he was enjoying. Once God took it away and brought him down from his worldly heights, Bakker said he realized how wrong he had been. It wasn't the Bible that failed, it was Jim Bakker.

Didn't know that. Thanks Cerek.

His son started a counter-cultural church in a bar in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.
http://www.revolutionnyc.com/

[SpiritWarrior]

I did see your other comments on faith etc. but I just want to focus on this for a second.

Originally Posted by Yorick And yet the Roman Catholic Church manage to work it together. Evolutionism is not atheism.

But isn't it? After a time, we grow up and shed certain ridiculous beliefs such as that of a man visiting every house on Christmas eve, equipped with presents for all those houses (not the jewish houses, mind you) and a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer. We laugh about it and smile, thinking these were simpler times when we believed this fairytale, because it brought us comfort and injected some magic into our childhood. Why is this any different? And why is it perfectly normal (in fact, encouraged) that we outgrow one fable, but are never asked and in some cases forbidden, to outgrow the other one? If we do, we are said to be "having doubts" or are branded a "non-believer".

Could I call some kid who is starting to realize Santa Claus is a myth, an atheist? If I swore to you that I believe in Santa, despite the evidence saying otherwise (e.g. my parents planting the gifts), how is this any different than me saying I have seen a plane take off so know that it can, where I am all the while insisting that I have faith St. Nick actually created, delivered and placed the gifts, even if the rest of the world knows this isn't true.

From a purely psychological point of view, this is, in fact, delusion by consensus. If a grown woman hears the voice of Santa or claims that she saw him bringing gifts to people then she is mad, because we all know that Santa doesn't exist, but, if she hears the voice of God then she is blessed or even called "chosen". In fact, many in the clergy claim they hear voices that would be fall into the symptoms of schizophrenia, yet they are somehow shielded from this label because it fits in with religious doctrine. If the same people hear voices but say that they aren't God, then they are shipped off to a mental institution.

[Stratos]

Originally Posted by Yorick And yet the Roman Catholic Church manage to work it together. Evolutionism is not atheism.

True, but you'd be amazed how many people who equate the two.

[Stratos]

Originally Posted by Yorick snip

Yorick, I don't really want to adress all of these arguments as I have alot of school work to do, but I'll say the following: you're making some pretty large leaps in logic on many of these. That some passages can be interpreted does not in itself mean that these are scientifically true passages. You would have to start to systematically rule out other explanations first. Given that many of these interpretations have been made after science have found the information, it's difficult to determine if these passages actually means this or if the have been "back-interpreted" with the answers already in hand. If the Bible contains all this scientific information, why didn't the theologians throughout history make the discoveries before the scientists?

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Originally Posted by Yorick Didn't know that. Thanks Cerek. His son started a counter-cultural church in a bar in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. http://www.revolutionnyc.com/

Me neither, thanks also!

And a great lesson it is to know the scriptures. Don't follow the man. It will lead you to your doom! I just made that up, but think of Manson, Jim Jones etc...

"Give to Caesar, that which is Caesars...." Matthew 22:15-22
Our (Christian) treasures and stored up in heaven.

Edit: further to:
2 Peter 3:10, Paul tells us the same in 1 Thess 5 verse 2


We are not in-fact, humans on a spiritual journey. We are spirits on a human journey. So, when that meteor hits, or whatever might happen, I just go back home.
I'll take that over the millions that fear death in all it's forms every day.

And, what about Madonna's "Like a Prayer"? need I say more?

[Lavindathar]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood We are not in-fact, humans on a spiritual journey. We are spirits on a human journey.

Do you really believe stuff like this?

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar Do you really believe stuff like this?

I can't believe were just a bunch of cells and electrical impulses. There has to be something more. But sorry, evolution can't give us that either.

I wish someone would just answer one of my questions. A straight answer. None of this "oh, they've answered a million questions" stuff.

Why do we have taste buds if we only eat to live?

I'll let my man Yorick take it from here...

[Jaradu]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Why do we have taste buds if we only eat to live?

To differentiate between different meats and plants so that we can build up a mental database of what gives us a lot of energy, what's poisonous, what's tainted, etc.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Originally Posted by Jaradu To differentiate between different meats and plants so that we can build up a mental database of what gives us a lot of energy, what's poisonous, what's tainted, etc.

Uhh, yeah, cause I eat that kinda stuff all the time.

Alright what a' ya say: I'll argue against it and you argue for creation for a while?