Going down like ninepins - who's next?

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Leonis: SNIP......Telco stories......SNIP

So you uncovered unethical business practices, and rather than blow the whistle to do something about it you just tucked tail and left? Things like that need to be brought to light.

I personally worked for Sprint PCS when they first went to market in washington DC with this nations first ever Digital PCS system. I had access to all the billing practices and anything that was kept on the computer systems. (I was one of 6 Senior Systems people) Now I can say that we did everything possible to make sure our billing was accurate. However, I cannot tel you how many thousands of people tried to rip us off. We had people calling us with bogus complaints, lies and non-payment of legitimate bills......Our policy was to be polite and if nothing else would placate the irate customer give them an amount of free service. Oh yeah we occasionally ttok some people to court but these were big time scam artists. All in all sounds like out telephone system is a bit different.

When you uncover dishonest dealings if you don't do something about it...you are part of the problem...we each have an obligation to fix things when we see they are wrong[/QUOTE]Yeah...I know this sounds kind of schmaltzy but hey, it is the philosophy I try to live by....probably why I'll never be a business tycoon too

[Yorick]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: To Leonis. You can object of course, you have the right, but you might have to put aside your wishes to be able to continue your job. You can choose to take another job etc etc.. It´s not always easy to be living on your principles and beliefs.. Might give you a nice conscious, but an empty s´tomache.. :S Guess that what someone told me is really true, life is full of sacrifices Usually your own...

But that still entails choice Wolfgir. If someone put a gun to your head and said "do this or die" you are still choosing to live and put aside self will at that point, or choosing to die and remain 'uncontrolled.'

Something is sacrificed either way. Life or volition. But the greater choice lies with the individual.

If one chose to reject it, like a vegan or concientious objector, I'm sure, it would be just like any other restriction. Can one be a vegan and a chef? How hypocritical if one cooks and prepares the animal products they won't eat. (Never understood how Hindu chefs can cook their 'sacred cows' for western consumption BTW) One can choose only to work as a vegan chef, but then they are restricing their job opportunities, just as a Non microsoft worker would.

Difficult, but far from impossible.

[Yorick]

[quote]Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

Originally posted by MagiK: [qb] MagiK, that is just so much total toss, if you'll excuse the experession. (Peace and love, babe... [img]smile.gif[/img] ) Okay, let me spell it out: the top 20% of American populations incomes are steadily rising. The bottom 20% are locked into low wage, low skill jobs, served by crap schools, and can't afford health insurance, or can't get it. The State of Working America is an independent analysis of the American labour market, and reports that the poor in america are less likely to exit poverty than the poor in Canada, Germany, Holland, Sweden or the UK. Your Warren Buffet (America's fourth richest man) himself says that the US is in danger of developing an aristocracy of the wealthy. He says that it is wrong to construct a society whose likely leaders tomorrow, given the advantages of wealth, will be the children of today's wealthy. In the US, 31% receive no formal training or education after leaving school. The ones who do go to college are mostly from a higher socio -economic background. Educational achievement is linked in the US MORE than elsewhere to family background. In many European countries, students can go onto to further education with the help of state funding, and so have a good chance of bettering themselves, even from a poor background. In the US, this is more difficult. In Britain too, it's been made more diffficult for poorer students with the removal of the state funding system. There is some help for poor students, but not enough, and the level of admissions to university from students from poor backgrounds has dropped dramatically. To attend a public university, the average cost currently is $7013 annually. But over the past 20 years, federal and state support to help fund students costs has declined. In 1965 the Pell Grant (largest fed programme for poor students) covered 85% of the cost of four years at university. In 2000 that had declined to 39%. In the US, the SAT test is a key measure of intellectual ability offering entry into colleges and universities. However, private coaching to help pass the test is extensive. Fees in New York, for example, can be sky high. Who can afford it? Kids from better off families. There is no level playing field in America. On what do you base your assertion that there is?

Preach it sister! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Originally posted by Yorick: You are rich MagiK rest assured.

I have always considered my self to be [img]smile.gif[/img] Even when I didn't have two dimes. Pretty much anyone who isnt born a beggar child in Africa or India or some other really depressed place has much to be thankful for. I do count my blessings annd am grateful. But you are wrong about how the system of wealth works. When it comes to money, there is no finite sum in existance. ANYONE ANYONE at all in thsi country can become successful. All It takes is will, determination, intelligence and a smidgeon of luck/timing.

Just because JP Getty has made x billions this year, does not mean that there are fewer dollars to go round for everyone else to make. You generate wealth by providing goods or services...the word generate means to create...you create wealth you don't have to steal it....but im not going to argue that any more, I put it out there, its true, I know it is and that is enough.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Fight fear with trust. Fight cynicism with idealism. Fight seeing problems in the unknown with seeing problems only where you KNOW they are. So the US dollar is falling a bit. Perhaps that will help rather than hinder the country... you just never know.

Yorick, I work for one of the world's biggest finance companies (on a freelance basis, I hasten to add.) The rose coloured spectacles got trodden on quite a while back.

On the dollar falling, etc, yes, of course. Doesn't stop me criticising the system that allowed things to get the way they are currently though. I'm not preaching apocalypse, - just saying that realistically, things aren't looking too good. In the UK, two major floats have been postphoned, cos of fears of what's going to happen next. Personally, I think that is wise. Being an optimist is all very well, but I think it's good to choose your moment. Who knows - all remaining listed companies may prove to be squeaky clean, totally above reproach. Shares in GE, anyone?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Preach it sister! [img]smile.gif[/img]

:Getting back on soapbox: [img]smile.gif[/img]

I forgot to say that in Germany, 80% of school leavers go onto receive either vocational training or a degree, and all except 1% receive formal post secondary ed or training, in the US 46% of school leavers gain no certificate or degree, and 31% receive no formal training or education at all after leaving school. The high cost of education IS a bar! How come Germany can do it and the US cannot?

So, MagiK, upon what do you base your boast that America is the land of opportunity? Just what makes it easier for people there to make it than anywhere else? Sorry, doesn't add up for me.

In the dreadful world of government intervention, starvation and flagellation that is the European Union [img]smile.gif[/img] people actually seem to be doing quite well, and so do companies generally, in spite of dire warnings to the contrary by US free marketeers. I get so pissed off with this American hoo har about we are the country of opportunity and everywhere else sucks. I'd rather work in Europe any day of the week thanks very much, - at least I get to have some rights as a worker! I've worked in a US corp - god you can keep it, HOW you can keep it! And it's not like all that feverish 24x7 activity was any more efficient than anywhere else. They seemed in a frightful mess, the way they did things. Mad as paint, if you ask me... the whole boiling....

Ok, rant over. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Silver Cheetah ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: You are rich MagiK rest assured.

I have always considered my self to be [img]smile.gif[/img] Even when I didn't have two dimes. Pretty much anyone who isnt born a beggar child in Africa or India or some other really depressed place has much to be thankful for. I do count my blessings annd am grateful. But you are wrong about how the system of wealth works. When it comes to money, there is no finite sum in existance. ANYONE ANYONE at all in thsi country can become successful. All It takes is will, determination, intelligence and a smidgeon of luck/timing.

Just because JP Getty has made x billions this year, does not mean that there are fewer dollars to go round for everyone else to make. You generate wealth by providing goods or services...the word generate means to create...you create wealth you don't have to steal it....but im not going to argue that any more, I put it out there, its true, I know it is and that is enough.[/QUOTE]Ah, but I didn't say money, I said resources. Money is just a representative of those resources. You can't just "print more money" to find more wealth.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Fight fear with trust. Fight cynicism with idealism. Fight seeing problems in the unknown with seeing problems only where you KNOW they are. So the US dollar is falling a bit. Perhaps that will help rather than hinder the country... you just never know.

Yorick, I work for one of the world's biggest finance companies (on a freelance basis, I hasten to add.) The rose coloured spectacles got trodden on quite a while back.

On the dollar falling, etc, yes, of course. Doesn't stop me criticising the system that allowed things to get the way they are currently though. I'm not preaching apocalypse, - just saying that realistically, things aren't looking too good. In the UK, two major floats have been postphoned, cos of fears of what's going to happen next. Personally, I think that is wise. Being an optimist is all very well, but I think it's good to choose your moment. Who knows - all remaining listed companies may prove to be squeaky clean, totally above reproach. Shares in GE, anyone?[/QUOTE]Well sure. When one knows a problem is there it's there. I was responding to your statements regarding the unknown, and the yet-to-be-discovered.

Thanks for the info on the investment scene over ther SC [img]smile.gif[/img] I really didn't know, and the fact that economics is not taught is a reall disturbing thing. I think all highschools should have Economics classes for each of the grades. It is just too important these days to be left out. The investment knowledge here is also not the best, but at least some of the people running the pension plans are smart enough to know that diversified Mutual funds are the way to go. I have no idea why the people in Enron would have invested so heavily in their own companies stock...unless it was greed and they thought they could pull off an AOL like profit...

As for the college discussion...I never went to college. I left highschool after graduation (grade 12) and since I had no money and a father determined that I would make it on my own at all costs, I chose to go into the military. The Navy soured me on school by putting me into a 24month intensive trainig program where I did 6 x 10 hour days of classroom instruction with a 4 hour mandatory study period on Sundays....by the time I finished that I never wanted to go to school again. It is only now after I have reached a point I never even dreamed of reaching that I am going back to school to get the "formal" advanced education I never had before. Aside from public schools and a highschool that doubled as a vocational schools I had to learn things the hard way...by doing it myself, or reading about it. I read a lot [img]smile.gif[/img] Education is key and it really distrubs me when I hear kids on here talking about learning "useless" stuff in school.....they just do not realize how important a well rounded education is, you need to learn all you can while you have the luxury of not having to do anything else. So I guess what Im saying is...we all need to impress upon younger people how important it is to go to school, read as much as possible and never discount something as useless knowledge.

Yeah Soap Box time
I wont argue the quality of the colleges, I know the quality of what is being taught has diminished greatly since I was in school, and it alarms me..all I can do is vote for people who want better education and I am NOT talking about the NEA and liberal left education....Im talking about the fundamentals, Reading, History, Math, Science, Languages, Economics, Shop and home ec. (YES I believe basic skills taught in shop and home ec are mondo important) the rest is all BS and should be left for the kids to explore on their free time, schools need to focus on those core subjects untill they get it perfect.

As for being able to afford school, the majority of people in college are there because of government grants, loans and financeing plans. They work their tails off going to school and then working 2 or 3 or more jobs at night...if they want it..they can get it. You dont have to go to an expensive University or college, there are a plethora of community colleges which nearly anyone can qualify for.

[ 07-02-2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Well sure. When one knows a problem is there it's there. I was responding to your statements regarding the unknown, and the yet-to-be-discovered.

The whole stock market thing, though, is founded on people taking actions now, based on their assessment of what a situation currently is, and what it is going to be. So basically, you are gambling on things being okay, and if they aren't, then oopsy daisy!

It seems to me that the stock market at its worst is little more than a giant casino (I said at its worst...)

In general, I would go along with your 'optimistic rather than pessimistic' approach to the unknown as life affirming and the best way forward.

But given the doubts currently hanging over accountancy practices and practitioners as a whole, a slightly pessimistic wait and see approach in regard to investment and lending seems really rather attractive...