Wizards versus... uh... anything else...

[ArmageddonX]

What if... I owned a party with 6 high spell-power, high regeneration, high spell amount, wizards. In most games warriors are 3x more powerful than wizards but in late game the wizards surpass the potential power of warriors. In wizards and warriors it looks as though wizards START more powerful than warriors. I rarely have battles with more than 4 or so creatures and with some ability with spell casters I'm able to unleash a barrage of deadly spells from the two wizards I do have even before the enemies reach me. I once fought a group of 7 rogues and by the time they reached me there was only three heavily injured rogues left. I'd think i'd be untouchable with all wizards except I'd have trouble getting past traps...

So my questions really are... Is the most powerful party the one composed of wizards alone? and... Is there any way that a wizard can make up for the lost abilities of a rogue?

[emilyh]

It's generally a bad idea in roleplaying to make an entire party of one character class. Wizards can't heal your party, and they have few hitpoints to start with, in W&W as well as most games I've played. What you can do is train your fighters into samurai and paladins that can cast limited spells as well as fight, so you have them and the wizard and the rogue and/or a priest. If the priest or wizard goes down, then you have a backup - sort of.

[emilyh]

RIght now my party has two paladins, a ninja, the wizard (which I trained as warlock), a samurai and a priest. It seems to work pretty well. I pumped up the rogue's lockpick skill, so now she can open darn near anything without getting blasted. Its nice to have the samurai able to cast spells too. All the paladins get is spirit magic, but that's ok. They're decent fighters anyway.

[Davros]

In the end I found the tougher monsters were easier to do damage to with the warriors. Cet (or Anephas, if you chose the evil path) you have to kill by beating to death with a sword and a staff. If your guys aren't trained up, and dishing out 60-200 points damage by that time, then they are going to spend an awful long time patting him lightly for 0-20 damage and taking many air swings. Also will leave you vulnerable to their spell casting effects for so much longer (gibber, drool).

Yes, you can get around the rogue limit at start-up. Take an initial wizard (lets assume very good starting stats). Straight away, take the warlock quest, join the priest guild and cancel the quest. At temple, take the paladin quest, join the warrior guild, cancel the quest. Now take the barbarian quest at the warrior guild. Let him build up a level or 2 so that he has both the pickpocket and trap/lock skills. Now, retake the warlock quest. You end up with all the normal warlock advantages (ie 4 spell books you can learn to level 7), you can advance your skills in locks on level ups, and when you get to Ishad and join the rogues guild you can train these skills further.

Wizards can not join the Rougues Guild, therefore they can not learn lock picking. Chests and some doors won't open unless "successfully" picked. If the trap goes off, the chest stays shut. Many quest items are in locked chests.

Priests can learn Pry and Disarm Traps. I haven't tested the efficiency of either of these as there were always more interesting spells that I wanted to get. You wouldn't get Disarm Traps until 5'th level Vine - fairly late in game.

Rogues double as excellent fighters, with less hit points though. A well trained Ninja does more damage than a fighter, but has low armor class (limited armor allowed) and lower hit points. On the plus side, his dodging ability is very high, he can use two weapons, has Deadly Strike, Hide in Shadows, Sneak and Backstab. Nija maintain all Disarm and pick pocketing skills from the Rogue.

My Wizards tend to use up their Mana before killing the tougher critters. After that they are pitiful fighters, usually missing or doing 2 points of damage even with decent weapons. They stand around uselessly until the Fighters finish it. You can find and purchase Mana potions to replenish Mana, but this is usually reserved for especially tough battles. Potions get used up quickly and take a while to replenish stocks.

Priest can convert to Warlock and learn offensive spells later in the game while maintaining healing. Breath of Air - 6th level Vine Magic, saved my bacon many times, you can only hold your breath under water for so long!

[ArmageddonX]

I have learned quite a bit about wizards in the past while... I have six elvish wizards with 18 intelligence and 15 spiritualism. Three are mastered in the sun spells where five are mastered in the stone spells. They are all level two right now. I set the monster generation all the way up and checked to see how well I would do.

I fought three groups simultaneously... a pack of 6 rogues, 4 nypmhs and about 12 goblins (not called goblins but I dont know the name). I had my three wizards who mastered in sun spells drop as many flamedrops as they had, three each. that killed all but four creatures. Soon after, when they were closer, I fired a small barrage of my zap spells. A whole lot of dead creatures... a foot deep pile of items... an unscratched party of wizards already healing and regenerating. I think I like wizards.

Now the rogue thing... It's my theory that I can create a rogue and bring him along any time that it is REQUIRED to have a lock-picker. Hopefully that is rare.

I just find it awesome seeing a small army approach and having the knowledge that they will never reach me. It is my belief that one wizard is worth two warriors.

[ArmageddonX]

Oh and Davros? Thanks for your attempt to help me on that but I'm not yet knowledgable enough to play W&W as advanced as you do. Someday I'll get this guild thing down, for now I'm still working with more of the basics.

There is one point in the game where one of your party must equip a special quest item which is Plate Armor. There is only one path forward and no way around it. As you say, you could possible switch party members at the appropriate time.

The equipment restrictions are relaxed for this armor, but I never attempted to equip it on a Wizard. Perhaps some one else has tried this?

I can try it and get back to you later.

[ArmageddonX]

So I need to train a warrior as well as a rogue to continue through the game? Unless of course a rogue could use the armor. I really doubt that a wizard can use armor, not only do they not have the attributes for it but they simply aren't allowed to wear armor (except robes are bras), I think. I'm now thinking that a priest might be one to train. A priest is second in ability to use armor and they can cast pry and disarm trap.

Also there is that zen-master thing. It sounds like that elite role is very end-game. Can all characters become a zen-master? No answer is required but if I ever get stuck I will ask later.

Thorny: My pixie warlock could wear the Dragon Plate Armour, and though his weight thing was well into the red it worked fine

ArmageddonX said: "Now the rogue thing... It's my theory that I can create a rogue and bring him along any time that it is REQUIRED to have a lock-picker. Hopefully that is rare." LOL there are so many chests in this game it's not even funny, and almost ALL of the quest items are in chests. You've got to get one guy, preferably a Rogue, preferably a lucky one (Gnome, anyone?), *VERY* high up in traps&locks, and keep advancing him as much as you can. I had him concentrate /exclusively/ it, letting my Barbarian get up in pickpocketing. You really can never be strong enough in traps&locks; I remember, near the end of the game, a 5-star chest with the Monk's Ward in it. My Rogue (he was an Assassin by then) had Level 11 traps & locks, and he still got hit with a whirlwind TWICE before he finally got that chest opened

BTW, for everyone else's consumption: by the end of the game, I had a Paladin, a Samurai, a Ninja, an Assassin, a Warlock, and a Zenmaster. They were all at least decent casters, the Zenmaster and Warlock kicking serious ass before the fighters even got close. I made the mistake the first time of having an all-male party. Not only no Valkyrie, but couldn't use those billions of Chain Mail Bras scattered about the dungeons LOL