Budget cuts in the Netherlands

[the new JR Jansen]

The only thing i have to say is, AUWCH. Those cuts muts really hurt. Maybe one of you Dutchies can provide a link to the proposed cuts, i only saw it on the NOS news yesterday. They almost took budget cuts on everything. The only thing that i find so bad about this is that the weakest in society are getting hit the hardest. People with chronic illnesses or handicaps are hit not once but multiple times. But everybody is going to feel it in their salaries. Hmmm, come to think of it, i haven't heard any cuts proposed on the salaries of the ministers.

[Skunk]

People with chronic illnesses or handicaps are hit not once but multiple times. But everybody is going to feel it in their salaries.

The cuts in WAO are long over-due and many of the so-called 'handicapped' are false claiments who are ripping off the tax-payer.

Folk might be interested to know that in the Netherlands, 13% of the work-force are claiming long-term sickness/handicap benefits. Yes, 13%! No typo!
According to the state, the top three reasons for claiming these benefits are:
1. Stress
2. M.E.
3. Whiplash
All very easy to fake and difficult to disprove.

Some background to the problem:
http://www.eiro.eurofound.eu.int/199...L9902124F.html
http://www.eiro.eurofound.eu.int/200...L0008103F.html

Dutch labour law makes the problem even worse. In the Netherlands, it is impossible to fire a sick employee so, if the employee believes that his boss is going to fire him...he signs off sick, choosing one of those hard-to-disprove illnesses like the above. Worse still for the employer, the 'sick' employee has a right to claim 70% of his salaray for up to a year from his employer! After that, the state picks up the tab...

[khazadman]

Aaaah, socialism! Isn't it wonderful?

[Skunk]

Originally posted by khazadman: Aaaah, socialism! Isn't it wonderful?

This has nothing to do with socialism - it is the original Dutch disease combined with the lack of accountability that comes with proportional representation.

Don't confuse ineptitude with socialism - it really doesn't do you justice.

[Stratos]

We have the same problems in Sweden. Methinks the rules to obtaining these benefits has been far to loose and some people have obviously taken advantage of this. It has somehow become 'accepted' to stop working and claim these benefits as soon as you're feeling a bit down. I know of a few people at my work who I suspects do this. Fortunately the goverment actually start to adress this problem as it is a major money drain.

To be able to stay at home due to sickness or handicap and still get payed is a great privilege and should NOT be abused, lest we risk loosing it altogether.

But 13% sounds really much, I don't have the numbers right here but I don't think it's even remotely close to that in Sweden.

[Melusine]

Skunk, all I can say is I disagree as strongly as you do with people who try to abuse welfare programs or who fake illnesses. But for Pete's sake be careful whom you hurt or insult in your indignation - just because *some* people are being dishonest doesn't mean they all are.
I have had M.E. for almost three years now, and please don't give me any crap about it being an unproven illness, or easy to fake, yada yada. Easy to fake huh? Being in so much pain you stagger along the street like you're 80 and being too strung out to dress yourself is NOT easy to fake, and I don't see why anyone WOULD fake such an affliction. Again, I hear what you're saying about those who abuse our social system (in fact, such people are my worst enemies since they make it so much harder for me!) but reasoning like yours is what's really made life miserable for me the last couple of years. I've lost count of the number of people who secretly suspected me of faking my illness. Why a 21-year-old girl with lots of hobbies, a study she truly loves and a great lust for life would EVER want to fake an illness that forces her to stay at home, sometimes even bed-bound, for over two years, give up most of the things that she enjoys and lose most of her friends...? F***ing beats me!
I quit my study because I was too ill, but even then I didn't become a lowly "profiteur" and "luie uitkeringtrekker" - I got a job! How bloody moronic is that - being too ill to even be able to study then taking a job in order to earn a living? Part of the reason why I did it is precisely because there's such a stigma on being ill in this country. Of course, I was really in no fit state to work so after half a year, I had to quit. And even though the ME had worsened by then (probably from the over-exertion) and I could have easily gone on straight into the Ziektewet, I felt guilty towards the company I worked for, and agreed to have them discontinue my contract. That left me with a huge struggle getting Bijstand.

Yes yes yes, I know - ALL people who rail and rage against fakers and 'profiteurs' are only referring to the real fakers - people who are actually ill are a different matter and they never mean to insult *those* poor people. Well, I *was* actually ill and still got the whole 'you lazy cheating faker' routine dumped on my head more times than I can remember, and it was awful.
Contrary to what you said, ME is not easy to fake (you go ahead and try it) and it's actually VERY easy to 'disprove' - most ME patients do NOT get welfare, even though the illness is officially recognised by the Tweede Kamer as an "arbeidsongeschiktheidscriterium" (leuk woord voor galgje) and by the WHO. So officially it's a criterium, but in practice, most patients are simply dismissed and forced to get their money elsewhere. I always thought I would be making things MUCH easier for myself if I were to lie and simply say I was clinically depressed (which some ME patients actually do become due to illness-related anxiety) or suffered from burn-out or something like that. Such psychological afflictions aren't provable by lab tests either, but at least most of the people who suffer from them do manage to get welfare.

OK, rant over.

[ 09-17-2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Stratos]

Some fake, most don't. If your're not faking it, you really shouldn't go into 'defensive mode', Melusine. I can't speak for those that you feel have railed against you, I can only speak for myself, but my intention has not been to judge you. I've never met you offline and I'm hardly qualified to make a assessment of your condition. Yet the stampeding raise of costs of those benefits is a major problem that have to be resolved one way or another.

[johnny]

Some thing are just plain wrong, like paying a fee for the anti conception pill, cutting back on education and healthcare. I predict a lot of strikes in the future.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Stratos: Some fake, most don't. If your're not faking it, you really shouldn't go into 'defensive mode', Melusine.

I'll make up my own mind about what I should or should not do, thanks very much. [img]smile.gif[/img] And if my "defensive mode" makes as much as one person think, so that another person with a chronic illness doesn't get unjustly accused, then I am satisfied.
Just knowing I am being truthful has not proven to be enough in the past years. People are willing to assume,for no reason, without knowing you, that you'd lie about something important without even blinking. So the fact that *I* know the truth about my illness isn't enough - it's something I and many, many other patients have found out the hard way. It cannot be said often enough that illness is not shameful or weak or your own fault. You may find it hard to believe if you haven't been exposed to it yourself but there *is* a big stigma on being ill in a lot of countries.
Besides, I wasn't even referring to anything you'd said, I was referring to Skunk's post, even though I'm aware he'd probably never falsely accuse someone of faking either (and also, disclaimer, my posts aren't rants against Skunk himself of course - they're just general in nature). Still, I know how easily assumptions are made and I don't care if people find me a stick-in-the-mud or annoying for speaking out against that.


Johnny - on the anticonception pill... I've been thinking about it a lot and I'm really of two minds about it. At first, I reacted just like you, then I thought: Isn't it weird that a. people who choose to protect themselves from pregnancy by using condoms are forced to pay for it themselves, while people on the pill get their anticonception for free? If anything, we should be helping the people who use condoms, since they protect themselves against STDs too. There are women who cannot use the pill because of the hormones they contain. For them, condoms are an obvious alternative, but isn't it weird they suddenly need to pay whereas, had they used the pill, it would have been free?
Also, the pill isn't a medicine, strictly speaking, although we could argue about that one, since many women use the pill for reasons other than anticonception: to alleviate menstrual pains for instance. But even so, it's not exactly medication so that's another reason why it might not be completely silly if the pill went out of the "ziekenfonds".
I've also talked with many other women who felt that it was their own responsibility not to get pregnant, and an important thing to stay aware about, and they wouldn't mind at all paying for it. I think the cost is around 40-100 euros a year, if I'm not mistaken.
Another thing is that teen pregancies will not increase, since the pill will still be free for women under 18 (I think it was 18, although I've read they upped the age to 21)
So I'm really not sure *what* to think. I don't find it as bad as some of the other cuts, I guess.

[ 09-17-2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[johnny]

I guess you have a point there mel, i didn't look at it that way.

One other thing disturbs me also, they take physiotherapie out of the "ziekenfonds" as well. Now, i had an extra insurance for that, since my back isn't all that anymore, and i need therapie every once in a while (chiropractor). Now it appears i'm gonna have to pay for a visit to a therapist, and i can tell you that that's gonna be a pretty expensive experience. Nice messages they gave the people on "prinsjesdag".