A Debate on Homosexuality - Page 8

01-11-2002, 08:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
To uphold any sort of prejudice, be it institutionally or individually, is a real sin. A division bell for our species. In order to be tolerant, understanding, and compassionate one must accept what is different about other people, no matter how foriegn, different, or unknown that may be. Let all our bias, and prejudice fall to the way side. In a true spirit of humanity and individuality one may reject the interpretations that label homosexuality as deviant or sinful. Equal rights for all. If two people are in love, and wish a ceremonial union with all rights granted by the state, than they should have it, and the world will just have to be ready for it, regardless of sexual preference. If a person, or couple can provide a stable, nurturing home for a child, then they should have the same chance as any other qualified candidate(s) when it comes to adoption, regardless of sexual preference. The science is in, and children raised by same sex couples suffer no gross abnormalities compared to any other adoptee.

Just my two cents worth.

Chewy being tolerant is not always a good thing, should we tolerate pedophilia? should we tolerate murder, rape and mayhem? I think not, it is right and THE right of a society to set its rules for acceptable behavior. And in this case the majority rules, if you are a minority then you had better get used to the idea that you will not have an equal voice to the majority. 1 man/woman/person 1 vote, We as a society seem to have accepted homosexualty to a degree as long as it does not get flaunted too publicly (by acceptance I mean we dont drag them out and burn them at the stake (for the most part)) If you are a minority and you push too hard for something the majority doesnt want, you are going to loose. Societies exist to further the common goals of the majority of the people, it isnt to further the goals of an individual or small segment of the population which brings me back to the ida I want to respond to someone else with....

01-11-2002, 08:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by catzenpewters:
There are a huge number marriages that are not for this purpose, or not in confirmity with the usual biblical expectations. Should couples who don't want to or can't have children not be allowed to marry? Don't be ridiculous. Should people who are not religious not be allowed to marry? Absurd! Common-law marriages are definitely frowned on by the church, and have only recently gained legal recognition. In my opinion homosexual marriages should fall under the same category.

I would like to disgree with your statement here, secular marriage and the recognition there of is most definatley fro the express reasons of creating new little tax payers to be, the Nuclear family being the prefered and to date most successful family structure is encouraged by the state (any state or nation not a particular state) to increase the tax base and to further the common good of the society. Two males and two females shacking up do not further the cause of increasing your tax base and therefore are in no way equal in status to the state as a male/female pair bond. You notice that the state doesnt afford any special priveledge to a heterosexual couple who are shacked up. Why? Because the apparent lack of commitment as shown by no marriage means that there is a higher liklyhood of there being a single parent created here which in general and usually creates a bigger drain on the social services of the state thereby reducing overall available tax funds for other more "desired" projects. It is ALL about the MONEY dude, you just have to dig a bit to find it. Oh and Im MALE for whoever it was that was wondering [img]smile.gif[/img]

Bahamut · 01-11-2002, 11:22 AM

well, what i don't get here is

why most of our gay people here are noisy and very bitchy? flirting around, whatever. that makes me sick of them. maybe because my definition of homosexuality is different. i am not like my friend who is very very open about this and his optimistic attitudes leading him, i on the other hand, despise this actions from gay people.

first of all, no matter what you do, raise your voice more than Mariah and the divas can all cook up won't make you a girl. and also whatever you dress up and all that crap, it won't do you any good. it is just wasting time. these trying hard bull is what makes me so sick of gay people...

but then i have seen the other side of gay people. the gay people in the army, determined gay people. thse guys are mature. they accept what they are and live with it. they don't try to change anything but the viewpoint of the society, namely mine, about their gender. these men i respect, and are man enough to say in a man's voice that they are women.

as for the religious thing, i do believe it is a sin, but then god is ever forgiving, and that it isn't this is what's important, it is how the person lived, i am sure He will agree with me.

with thee society, yeah. i hope they accept it. i just don't like thee thing that when we accept it, those bitchy gay people turn it into some freakshow.

Melusine · 01-11-2002, 11:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Bahamut:
well, what i don't get here is

why most of our gay people here are noisy and very bitchy? flirting around, whatever. that makes me sick of them. maybe because my definition of homosexuality is different. i am not like my friend who is very very open about this and his optimistic attitudes leading him, i on the other hand, despise this actions from gay people.

first of all, no matter what you do, raise your voice more than Mariah and the divas can all cook up won't make you a girl. and also whatever you dress up and all that crap, it won't do you any good. it is just wasting time. these trying hard bull is what makes me so sick of gay people...

I do hope you realise how prejudiced this is. Just as there are many different types of heterosexuals, there are many different types of gays. How can you possibly assume that these homosexuals you are talking about are so "bitchy and noisy" BECAUSE they are gay? Maybe they'd have the exact same personality if they'd been straight.

As for your second paragraph: dude, get your facts straight (har har)! A homosexual man doesn't want to be a woman, that's a transsexual! And a transvestite isn't necesarrily gay, just as a gay isn't necessarily a transvestite. Those are three different things and they should not be confused.

Yeah, yeah, I know how you go on to say you know some nice gays too, but the whole point is: there is no merit AT ALL in this sort of generalisation! Just like it is ridiculous to say: hey Africans/Dutch/Germans/Americans/doctors/shoesalesmen/women/priests/Christians/Zulus are ok because I met a few nice ones. Why not regard every human being as an individual instead of drawing conclusions from their beliefs/race/gender/sexual orientation.

Melusine · 01-11-2002, 11:41 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Istaron:
Since no one else has dared to say it (I can't be alone understanding this), I will!

Homosexuallity is a sin; not against some god that exist only inside peoples head, but to mankind and even nature herself.

Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes (doing nasty that is [img]smile.gif[/img] , secure the survival of your species.
To do that, it takes a male , and a female. A | and a 0.
| + | wont do it. Neither will 0 + 0.
Since no genes can be spread with those combinations, the meaning of life will be lost; their life becomes meaningless. Something life is too complex for to be allowed to be.

About socity: I think homosexuals should be dealt with in some way. Since it isn't natural, it must be some kind of decease, illnes or something like that. Homosexual people should get help, like people that are addicted to drugs are.

My two cents

I can't believe I'm actually trying to argue with you, but here goes: [img]tongue.gif[/img]

First of all, if homosexuality isn't natural on the grounds that it doesn't permit reproduction, then so is using a condom or another means of birth control. So is choosing not to have children in your marriage. So is an infertile woman. In other words: poppycock.
It occurs in nature, so it is natural.

I'm going to repeat this memorable quote yet again:
Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes
Don't make me laugh. Axil put it very nicely (and a lot NICER too than I would have) when he said it takes a lot more than "being good at biology" to fathom the bloody Meaning of Life. In fact, even if you were a bloody Biology professor I wouldn't take your word on it.
If procreation is the only meaning of life, does that mean that a woman from Rwanda who gets raped at age 16 by a bunch of soldiers, delivers a baby but dies in the process fulfilled the meaning of her life? It is precisely the fact that we are not solely driven by the instinct to survive that makes us human. You might as well condemn ALL occupations and actions that do not directly contribute to the survival of the human race as being unnatural. [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img]

01-11-2002, 11:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:

Why not regard every human being as an individual instead of drawing conclusions from their beliefs/race/gender/sexual orientation.

My thoughts exactly Mel! I have opinions about the life style things but when it comes to individuals I take them one at a time and treat them as I want to be treated...altho some may not like this since it is an admonishment from a "contraditory book written by a few monks" as some would call it.

Bahamut · 01-11-2002, 11:54 AM

i get your point Mel... (okay ryan stop writing and when you write, write in detail!!!) [img]smile.gif[/img]

sorry but yeah i do talk about gay people here in our place. yeah i am serious, it not the transvestite thing you know... not that it is in such a generalization or anything, all in all i respect them and all that, maybe tolerate a few, but some here are really pushing it to the limit. they are to the extremes... sometimes i don't know if ii am to pity and all that...

really i may sound like a hypocrite by saying that i really have nothing against them but i really have nothing. maybe a part of me that makes a bit biased contrary to my beliefs right now are because of my upbringing. i may love everyone in general, as you say this is the proper way and i agree with you, but something tells me otherwise, and that thing tears me in between these people. maybe i just don't like noisy people in general? [img]smile.gif[/img]

but here is what i know, i may have been too harsh, and being tired is not an excuse so i aplogize for what bad things i said. just so now i have realized a big deal. i forgot to reflect early on that these people i call bitchy, have a big problem at hand. and that their overhappiness is just a thin silk blanket covering all of their scars. i may have apologized and everything, try to change and all that, but some people, not gays in general, everyone just never learn...

Vaskez · 01-11-2002, 01:38 PM

Heh, I've had so many debates online now, and the funny thing is, none of them lead anywhere. People come in with fixed ideas and leave with the same ideas albeit more pissed off than when they came in. Everyone is on a mission to convince everyone else of their opinion and most people don't listen to other people and so it is like everyone talking at the same time to a brick wall...
the only goods thing I can see coming out of online debates are that
1) we get to know each other better through our ideas
2) we learn a lot about how many different ideas and mentalities and viewpoints exist in the world for any given subject.

Melusine · 01-11-2002, 01:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Vaskez:
Everyone is on a mission to convince everyone else of their opinion.

Speak for yourself...

Istaron · 01-11-2002, 01:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:

I'm going to repeat this memorable quote yet again:
Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes
Don't make me laugh. Axil put it very nicely (and a lot NICER too than I would have) when he said it takes a lot more than "being good at biology" to fathom the bloody Meaning of Life. In fact, even if you were a bloody Biology professor I wouldn't take your word on it.
If procreation is the only meaning of life, does that mean that a woman from Rwanda who gets raped at age 16 by a bunch of soldiers, delivers a baby but dies in the process fulfilled the meaning of her life? It is precisely the fact that we are not solely driven by the instinct to survive that makes us human. You might as well condemn ALL occupations and actions that do not directly contribute to the survival of the human race as being unnatural. [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img]

Well, what I meant was was acctually that according to the biology, the meaning of life is spreading genes.
AND, about that girl. Her task isn't finished before she has also raised the child, and perhaps even got some new ones. That is how mankind does; taking care of their cubs.

01-11-2002, 08:45 AM	#71
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: To uphold any sort of prejudice, be it institutionally or individually, is a real sin. A division bell for our species. In order to be tolerant, understanding, and compassionate one must accept what is different about other people, no matter how foriegn, different, or unknown that may be. Let all our bias, and prejudice fall to the way side. In a true spirit of humanity and individuality one may reject the interpretations that label homosexuality as deviant or sinful. Equal rights for all. If two people are in love, and wish a ceremonial union with all rights granted by the state, than they should have it, and the world will just have to be ready for it, regardless of sexual preference. If a person, or couple can provide a stable, nurturing home for a child, then they should have the same chance as any other qualified candidate(s) when it comes to adoption, regardless of sexual preference. The science is in, and children raised by same sex couples suffer no gross abnormalities compared to any other adoptee. Just my two cents worth. Chewy being tolerant is not always a good thing, should we tolerate pedophilia? should we tolerate murder, rape and mayhem? I think not, it is right and THE right of a society to set its rules for acceptable behavior. And in this case the majority rules, if you are a minority then you had better get used to the idea that you will not have an equal voice to the majority. 1 man/woman/person 1 vote, We as a society seem to have accepted homosexualty to a degree as long as it does not get flaunted too publicly (by acceptance I mean we dont drag them out and burn them at the stake (for the most part)) If you are a minority and you push too hard for something the majority doesnt want, you are going to loose. Societies exist to further the common goals of the majority of the people, it isnt to further the goals of an individual or small segment of the population which brings me back to the ida I want to respond to someone else with....

01-11-2002, 08:53 AM	#72
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by catzenpewters: There are a huge number marriages that are not for this purpose, or not in confirmity with the usual biblical expectations. Should couples who don't want to or can't have children not be allowed to marry? Don't be ridiculous. Should people who are not religious not be allowed to marry? Absurd! Common-law marriages are definitely frowned on by the church, and have only recently gained legal recognition. In my opinion homosexual marriages should fall under the same category. I would like to disgree with your statement here, secular marriage and the recognition there of is most definatley fro the express reasons of creating new little tax payers to be, the Nuclear family being the prefered and to date most successful family structure is encouraged by the state (any state or nation not a particular state) to increase the tax base and to further the common good of the society. Two males and two females shacking up do not further the cause of increasing your tax base and therefore are in no way equal in status to the state as a male/female pair bond. You notice that the state doesnt afford any special priveledge to a heterosexual couple who are shacked up. Why? Because the apparent lack of commitment as shown by no marriage means that there is a higher liklyhood of there being a single parent created here which in general and usually creates a bigger drain on the social services of the state thereby reducing overall available tax funds for other more "desired" projects. It is ALL about the MONEY dude, you just have to dig a bit to find it. Oh and Im MALE for whoever it was that was wondering [img]smile.gif[/img]

01-11-2002, 11:22 AM	#73
Bahamut Iron Throne Cult Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Age: 39 Posts: 4,864	well, what i don't get here is why most of our gay people here are noisy and very bitchy? flirting around, whatever. that makes me sick of them. maybe because my definition of homosexuality is different. i am not like my friend who is very very open about this and his optimistic attitudes leading him, i on the other hand, despise this actions from gay people. first of all, no matter what you do, raise your voice more than Mariah and the divas can all cook up won't make you a girl. and also whatever you dress up and all that crap, it won't do you any good. it is just wasting time. these trying hard bull is what makes me so sick of gay people... but then i have seen the other side of gay people. the gay people in the army, determined gay people. thse guys are mature. they accept what they are and live with it. they don't try to change anything but the viewpoint of the society, namely mine, about their gender. these men i respect, and are man enough to say in a man's voice that they are women. as for the religious thing, i do believe it is a sin, but then god is ever forgiving, and that it isn't this is what's important, it is how the person lived, i am sure He will agree with me. with thee society, yeah. i hope they accept it. i just don't like thee thing that when we accept it, those bitchy gay people turn it into some freakshow. __________________ http://makeallthedifference.blogspot.com http://www.bratgirlcentral.com/cgi-b.../ikonboard.cgi

01-11-2002, 11:33 AM	#74
Melusine Dracolisk Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 43 Posts: 6,541	quote: Originally posted by Bahamut: well, what i don't get here is why most of our gay people here are noisy and very bitchy? flirting around, whatever. that makes me sick of them. maybe because my definition of homosexuality is different. i am not like my friend who is very very open about this and his optimistic attitudes leading him, i on the other hand, despise this actions from gay people. first of all, no matter what you do, raise your voice more than Mariah and the divas can all cook up won't make you a girl. and also whatever you dress up and all that crap, it won't do you any good. it is just wasting time. these trying hard bull is what makes me so sick of gay people... I do hope you realise how prejudiced this is. Just as there are many different types of heterosexuals, there are many different types of gays. How can you possibly assume that these homosexuals you are talking about are so "bitchy and noisy" BECAUSE they are gay? Maybe they'd have the exact same personality if they'd been straight. As for your second paragraph: dude, get your facts straight (har har)! A homosexual man doesn't want to be a woman, that's a transsexual! And a transvestite isn't necesarrily gay, just as a gay isn't necessarily a transvestite. Those are three different things and they should not be confused. Yeah, yeah, I know how you go on to say you know some nice gays too, but the whole point is: there is no merit AT ALL in this sort of generalisation! Just like it is ridiculous to say: hey Africans/Dutch/Germans/Americans/doctors/shoesalesmen/women/priests/Christians/Zulus are ok because I met a few nice ones. Why not regard every human being as an individual instead of drawing conclusions from their beliefs/race/gender/sexual orientation. __________________ [img]\"hosted/melusine.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Your voice is ambrosia

01-11-2002, 11:41 AM	#75
Melusine Dracolisk Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 43 Posts: 6,541	quote: Originally posted by Istaron: Since no one else has dared to say it (I can't be alone understanding this), I will! Homosexuallity is a sin; not against some god that exist only inside peoples head, but to mankind and even nature herself. Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes (doing nasty that is [img]smile.gif[/img] , secure the survival of your species. To do that, it takes a male , and a female. A \| and a 0. \| + \| wont do it. Neither will 0 + 0. Since no genes can be spread with those combinations, the meaning of life will be lost; their life becomes meaningless. Something life is too complex for to be allowed to be. About socity: I think homosexuals should be dealt with in some way. Since it isn't natural, it must be some kind of decease, illnes or something like that. Homosexual people should get help, like people that are addicted to drugs are. My two cents I can't believe I'm actually trying to argue with you, but here goes: [img]tongue.gif[/img] First of all, if homosexuality isn't natural on the grounds that it doesn't permit reproduction, then so is using a condom or another means of birth control. So is choosing not to have children in your marriage. So is an infertile woman. In other words: poppycock. It occurs in nature, so it is natural. I'm going to repeat this memorable quote yet again: Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes Don't make me laugh. Axil put it very nicely (and a lot NICER too than I would have) when he said it takes a lot more than "being good at biology" to fathom the bloody Meaning of Life. In fact, even if you were a bloody Biology professor I wouldn't take your word on it. If procreation is the only meaning of life, does that mean that a woman from Rwanda who gets raped at age 16 by a bunch of soldiers, delivers a baby but dies in the process fulfilled the meaning of her life? It is precisely the fact that we are not solely driven by the instinct to survive that makes us human. You might as well condemn ALL occupations and actions that do not directly contribute to the survival of the human race as being unnatural. [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] __________________ [img]\"hosted/melusine.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Your voice is ambrosia

01-11-2002, 11:50 AM	#76
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Melusine: Why not regard every human being as an individual instead of drawing conclusions from their beliefs/race/gender/sexual orientation. My thoughts exactly Mel! I have opinions about the life style things but when it comes to individuals I take them one at a time and treat them as I want to be treated...altho some may not like this since it is an admonishment from a "contraditory book written by a few monks" as some would call it.

01-11-2002, 11:54 AM	#77
Bahamut Iron Throne Cult Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Manila, Philippines Age: 39 Posts: 4,864	i get your point Mel... (okay ryan stop writing and when you write, write in detail!!!) [img]smile.gif[/img] sorry but yeah i do talk about gay people here in our place. yeah i am serious, it not the transvestite thing you know... not that it is in such a generalization or anything, all in all i respect them and all that, maybe tolerate a few, but some here are really pushing it to the limit. they are to the extremes... sometimes i don't know if ii am to pity and all that... really i may sound like a hypocrite by saying that i really have nothing against them but i really have nothing. maybe a part of me that makes a bit biased contrary to my beliefs right now are because of my upbringing. i may love everyone in general, as you say this is the proper way and i agree with you, but something tells me otherwise, and that thing tears me in between these people. maybe i just don't like noisy people in general? [img]smile.gif[/img] but here is what i know, i may have been too harsh, and being tired is not an excuse so i aplogize for what bad things i said. just so now i have realized a big deal. i forgot to reflect early on that these people i call bitchy, have a big problem at hand. and that their overhappiness is just a thin silk blanket covering all of their scars. i may have apologized and everything, try to change and all that, but some people, not gays in general, everyone just never learn... __________________ http://makeallthedifference.blogspot.com http://www.bratgirlcentral.com/cgi-b.../ikonboard.cgi

01-11-2002, 01:38 PM	#78
Vaskez Takhisis Follower Join Date: April 30, 2001 Location: szép Magyarország (well not right now) Posts: 5,089	Heh, I've had so many debates online now, and the funny thing is, none of them lead anywhere. People come in with fixed ideas and leave with the same ideas albeit more pissed off than when they came in. Everyone is on a mission to convince everyone else of their opinion and most people don't listen to other people and so it is like everyone talking at the same time to a brick wall... the only goods thing I can see coming out of online debates are that 1) we get to know each other better through our ideas 2) we learn a lot about how many different ideas and mentalities and viewpoints exist in the world for any given subject. __________________ Too set in his ways to ever relate If he could set that aside, there'd be heaven to pay But weathered and aged, time swept him to grave Love conquers all? Damn, I'd say that area's gray

01-11-2002, 01:40 PM	#79
Melusine Dracolisk Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 43 Posts: 6,541	quote: Originally posted by Vaskez: Everyone is on a mission to convince everyone else of their opinion. Speak for yourself... __________________ [img]\"hosted/melusine.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Your voice is ambrosia

01-11-2002, 01:42 PM	#80
Istaron Banned User Join Date: June 16, 2001 Location: Uppland Posts: 711	quote: Originally posted by Melusine: I'm going to repeat this memorable quote yet again: Since I am good at subjects as biology, I can state that the meaning of life is as simple as spreading your genes Don't make me laugh. Axil put it very nicely (and a lot NICER too than I would have) when he said it takes a lot more than "being good at biology" to fathom the bloody Meaning of Life. In fact, even if you were a bloody Biology professor I wouldn't take your word on it. If procreation is the only meaning of life, does that mean that a woman from Rwanda who gets raped at age 16 by a bunch of soldiers, delivers a baby but dies in the process fulfilled the meaning of her life? It is precisely the fact that we are not solely driven by the instinct to survive that makes us human. You might as well condemn ALL occupations and actions that do not directly contribute to the survival of the human race as being unnatural. [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img] Well, what I meant was was acctually that according to the biology, the meaning of life is spreading genes. AND, about that girl. Her task isn't finished before she has also raised the child, and perhaps even got some new ones. That is how mankind does; taking care of their cubs.

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