Female Suicide Bombers

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Evil Al: Remember that one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. In Scottish peoples eyes at the time William Wallace was our freedom fighter, our hero and inspiration for something better, but in the eyes of the English he was a terrorist and a traitor that only deserved a painful death. In a way he is just like the Arabs that take their own lives. Answer me this, if your home was taken from you would you either; except it or fight back anyway you can? I know what I would choose to do...

Would you? You would die over a small piece of dry land? You would die for some land? Land that abounds elsewhere?

I'd move countries. More agree with me than you. The Irish diaspora numbers 70 million, whereas there are only 5 million in Ireland.

The Roman Empire in part fell due to the eastward movement of peoples. Scots left the country in droves and heavily populated New Zealand, Canada, America and Australia.

It makes more sense. It's called ADAPTABILITY.

The land in Arizona is not that dissimilar from central Australia. The land in parts of America are similar to Scandinavia.

The world is big enough, that if you lose your home, you can start again in a new place.

Some do it out of choice.

The concept of Arabs, surrounded by Arabic speaking nations where they can practice Islam, listen to the call to prayer, walk in the same dusty dirt, read the same writing and buy the same dates only a few miles from where they came from, refusing to adapt is beyond me.

The United Nations set up Israel as a place where Jews could practice Judaism freely. Where they could exist as a majority population rather than a scorned, hated, transient minority.

The United Nations.

Some times the collection of the worlds nations makes decisions that are not within a particular nations interest. Imposing coal reductions on coal dependent Australia for example.

But this is for the greater good for the planet.

For the Arab league to initially thumb their noses at international opinion and declare war on the newly created state, and continually dismiss it as an American/British creation reminiscent of the crusades, (when the Principality of Jerusalem and The County of Edessa were created in Palestine) is to reject the concept of an arbitrary, war reducing body altogether.

If I were a Palestinian, I would move to Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Arabia or Tunisia. For a better life I'd move to Australia and exist with the many, many Lebanese and other Arabs there. Whatever, I certainly wouldn't be sending my son out with a bomb strapped around his chest to go and kill some Israeli coffee drinkers.

But then I have information. Education.

I read an article about a school in Pakistan which was devoted entirely to Islam. No world education whatsoever. Ignorance heavy and bias abounded. A vertiable seeding ground for terrorists was the writers conclusion.

As humans we can only make decisions based on the information available.

Thus Normp, a simple exchange of information on the internet can change things. It may only change one person, but one never knows the eventual impact of that one person.

What information are the suiciders receiving?
At age eight what misinformation is fuelling their hatred?

"Where else can we go? Our home is here..."

Try a few miles south, east or north

[ 04-05-2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Evil Al]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Evil Al: Remember that one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. In Scottish peoples eyes at the time William Wallace was our freedom fighter, our hero and inspiration for something better, but in the eyes of the English he was a terrorist and a traitor that only deserved a painful death. In a way he is just like the Arabs that take their own lives. Answer me this, if your home was taken from you would you either; except it or fight back anyway you can? I know what I would choose to do...

Evil Al [img]smile.gif[/img] You need to take a closer look at history. These people are not of the same sort as the Scots. These people are not fighting for freedom for the people and civil treatment for their men women and children. They are fighting for the right to opress and enslave their own, based on sex and age. Not a very noble fight for anyone with any sort of support for human dignity.[/QUOTE]What you said is true, MagiK. But if the majority of people in the country like living like that, then how can we stop them. True *most* Arab countries treat women with little or no respect but if they want to live like that then fine. It's in their religion after all.
Though I have to admit if the women folk were educated then they would choose to be free.
My main reason for not liking what is going on in Palestine (officially Israel) is that the Arabs had no choice, they were forced to live on crappy land. And know they are fighting back to get what is rightfully theirs. Though they should share the land, but once you have been fighting someone for so long it becomes a habit.

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Evil Al: Remember that one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. In Scottish peoples eyes at the time William Wallace was our freedom fighter, our hero and inspiration for something better, but in the eyes of the English he was a terrorist and a traitor that only deserved a painful death. In a way he is just like the Arabs that take their own lives. Answer me this, if your home was taken from you would you either; except it or fight back anyway you can? I know what I would choose to do...

Would you? You would die over a small piece of dry land? You would die for some land? Land that abounds elsewhere?

I'd move countries. More agree with me than you. The Irish diaspora numbers 70 million, whereas there are only 5 million in Ireland.

The Roman Empire in part fell due to the eastward movement of peoples. Scots left the country in droves and heavily populated New Zealand, Canada, America and Australia.

It makes more sense. It's called ADAPTABILITY.

The land in Arizona is not that dissimilar from central Australia. The land in parts of America are similar to Scandinavia.

The world is big enough, that if you lose your home, you can start again in a new place.

Some do it out of choice.

The concept of Arabs, surrounded by Arabic speaking nations where they can practice Islam, listen to the call to prayer, walk in the same dusty dirt, read the same writing and buy the same dates only a few miles from where they came from, refusing to adapt is beyond me.

The United Nations set up Israel as a place where Jews could practice Judaism freely. Where they could exist as a majority population rather than a scorned, hated, transient minority.

The United Nations.

Some times the collection of the worlds nations makes decisions that are not within a particular nations interest. Imposing coal reductions on coal dependent Australia for example.

But this is for the greater good for the planet.

For the Arab league to initially thumb their noses at international opinion and declare war on the newly created state, and continually dismiss it as an American/British creation reminiscent of the crusades, (when the Principality of Jerusalem and The County of Edessa were created in Palestine) is to reject the concept of an arbitrary, war reducing body altogether.

If I were a Palestinian, I would move to Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Arabia or Tunisia. For a better life I'd move to Australia and exist with the many, many Lebanese and other Arabs there. Whatever, I certainly wouldn't be sending my son out with a bomb strapped around his chest to go and kill some Israeli coffee drinkers.

But then I have information. Education.

I read an article about a school in Pakistan which was devoted entirely to Islam. No world education whatsoever. Ignorance heavy and bias abounded. A vertiable seeding ground for terrorists was the writers conclusion.

As humans we can only make decisions based on the information available.

Thus Normp, a simple exchange of information on the internet can change things. It may only change one person, but one never knows the eventual impact of that one person.

What information are the suiciders receiving?
At age eight what misinformation is fuelling their hatred?

"Where else can we go? Our home is here..."

Try a few miles south, east or north[/QUOTE]yes... a good point. one that could also be applied to israelis dont you think? they could also move. somehow i think the idea wouldnt prosper so much in any case.

and not only from them, most of the people in every nation in the world would tell you a resouding no if you asked them to leave their home and move elsewhere.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Evil Al: What you said is true, MagiK. But if the majority of people in the country like living like that, then how can we stop them. True *most* Arab countries treat women with little or no respect but if they want to live like that then fine. It's in their religion after all. Though I have to admit if the women folk were educated then they would choose to be free. My main reason for not liking what is going on in Palestine (officially Israel) is that the Arabs had no choice, they were forced to live on crappy land. And know they are fighting back to get what is rightfully theirs. Though they should share the land, but once you have been fighting someone for so long it becomes a habit.

Rightfully theirs?

It's akin to the UN setting up Long Island as the one place in the world where Amerindians can have an independant state.

The EuroAmericans refuse this and so fight to get back what's "rightfully theirs".

But who took the land from who in the first place?

If the Arabs had stayed in Arabia instead of embarking on a blooddrenched conquest and annhialation of Coptic Egypt, Assyrian Mesopotamia, Jewish Palestine etc etc. this wouldn't be a problem.

You reap what you sow.

As far as the line
"True *most* Arab countries treat women with little or no respect but if they want to live like that then fine. It's in their religion after all.
Though I have to admit if the women folk were educated then they would choose to be free."

Who is that 'fine' for? The women?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yes... a good point. one that could also be applied to israelis dont you think? they could also move. somehow i think the idea wouldnt prosper so much in any case. and not only from them, most of the people in every nation in the world would tell you a resouding no if you asked them to leave their home and move elsewhere.

You miss the point Noromp. When the Israelis existed "a few miles north, south and east" from Israel, they were living in Islamic dominated cultures, and from time to time suffered in those countries. There is nowhere else to go.

New York? Are not the Hassidics with their black overcoats and hats in summer the subject of derision? Weren't there huge Black/Jewish problems in Brooklyn years ago?

That's the whole point Noromp. The Arabs have plenty of options, the Jews one.

Even on the 'holy site' issue.

Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam.
But it's the holiest site of all in Judaism.
Who loses more in giving it up?

Normp, historically you are wrong. Adaptability and the movement of humankind are two hallmarks of the human race. We have moved into every climate. Adverse pressure creates movement. Full nomadism was practiced by entire cultures, let alone the resettlement immigrants undertake.

If everyone took your view America would not exist. Ireland would not exist! We would all be in ETHIOPIA!

[ 04-05-2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Yorick: You miss the point Noromp. When the Israelis existed "a few miles north, south and east" from Israel, they were living in Islamic dominated cultures, and from time to time suffered in those countries. There is nowhere else to go. New York? Are not the Hassidics with their black overcoats and hats in summer the subject of derision? Weren't there huge Black/Jewish problems in Brooklyn years ago? That's the whole point Noromp. The Arabs have plenty of options, the Jews one. Even on the 'holy site' issue. Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. But it's the holiest site of all in Judaism. Who loses more in giving it up? Normp, historically you are wrong. Adaptability and the movement of humankind are two hallmarks of the human race. We have moved into every climate. Adverse pressure creates movement. Full nomadism was practiced by entire cultures, let alone the resettlement immigrants undertake. If everyone took your view America would not exist. Ireland would not exist! We would all be in ETHIOPIA![/QB]

yes yes... i know. personally i dont see a problem with people moving elsewhere to live (ive lived in 3 countries so far and have come to europe by myself to live). travelling is one of the things i love most.

what i was saying is that most people do not like to be forced away from their homes and do not like to move. ranging from the us or european farmer that fiercely protects his lands against big landlords, or the poor southamerican that doesnt want to leave his village, or all the people, regular, ordinary people that live in their birthplace until they die. the world is full with examples.

people hang on to what it is familiar to them. they dont want to take risks. moving is a risk, a big one. massive exodus or massive enmigration occurs when a population is forced to move because the conditions in their homeland are so bad they consider taking the risk of moving the lesser of two evils. those who move because they want to experiment, or like the adventure, or want to know places, are the minority.

eg: argentina again, when i left, everybody thought i was crazy. things were fine there, so there was no point in going away. of course, i did it for my own personal reasons. now every young man/woman is leaving. but they are going away forced, they do not want to. they miss a lot, do not adapt so quickly, and resent those who felt made them go away.

of course, i do not have all the info so maybe youre right at some point. im just talking for personal experience. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:

If I were a Palestinian, I would move to Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Arabia or Tunisia. For a better life I'd move to Australia and exist with the many, many Lebanese and other Arabs there. Whatever, I certainly wouldn't be sending my son out with a bomb strapped around his chest to go and kill some Israeli coffee drinkers. But then I have information. Education.

Good Post Yorik however this little section has a flaw. You see the Palistinians did live in Jordan for a while...the now deceased King of Jordan at the time(can't recall his name) declared war on the Palistinians and killed thousands of them driving them out of Jordan, you see all these ARAB nations protesting the rights of the Palistinians have all been guilty of driving them out themselves. Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria all have killed their fair share of these people in their own time. And Im not talking pre-history here Im talking about in the last 40 or 50 years.

At least israel has a better reason for fighting them than just saying "Get out" which is basicly what Jordan did.

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: You miss the point Noromp. When the Israelis existed "a few miles north, south and east" from Israel, they were living in Islamic dominated cultures, and from time to time suffered in those countries. There is nowhere else to go. New York? Are not the Hassidics with their black overcoats and hats in summer the subject of derision? Weren't there huge Black/Jewish problems in Brooklyn years ago? That's the whole point Noromp. The Arabs have plenty of options, the Jews one. Even on the 'holy site' issue. Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. But it's the holiest site of all in Judaism. Who loses more in giving it up? Normp, historically you are wrong. Adaptability and the movement of humankind are two hallmarks of the human race. We have moved into every climate. Adverse pressure creates movement. Full nomadism was practiced by entire cultures, let alone the resettlement immigrants undertake. If everyone took your view America would not exist. Ireland would not exist! We would all be in ETHIOPIA!

yes yes... i know. personally i dont see a problem with people moving elsewhere to live (ive lived in 3 countries so far and have come to europe by myself to live). travelling is one of the things i love most.

what i was saying is that most people do not like to be forced away from their homes and do not like to move. ranging from the us or european farmer that fiercely protects his lands against big landlords, or the poor southamerican that doesnt want to leave his village, or all the people, regular, ordinary people that live in their birthplace until they die. the world is full with examples.

people hang on to what it is familiar to them. they dont want to take risks. moving is a risk, a big one. massive exodus or massive enmigration occurs when a population is forced to move because the conditions in their homeland are so bad they consider taking the risk of moving the lesser of two evils. those who move because they want to experiment, or like the adventure, or want to know places, are the minority.

eg: argentina again, when i left, everybody thought i was crazy. things were fine there, so there was no point in going away. of course, i did it for my own personal reasons. now every young man/woman is leaving. but they are going away forced, they do not want to. they miss a lot, do not adapt so quickly, and resent those who felt made them go away.

of course, i do not have all the info so maybe youre right at some point. im just talking for personal experience. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB][/QUOTE]Im going to admit that Im not really up on exactly how things were done in the late 40's to create the countries of Israel and Pakistan (yes they were both created around the same time..in the same year if Im not totlly messed up) but as I recall from history class, there was no violent ousting of indigent inhabitants. The palistinians didn't really start harassing the Jews untill the Jordanian King declared war on them and drove them out of Jordan to the west bank area.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by norompanlasolas: yes... a good point. one that could also be applied to israelis dont you think? they could also move. somehow i think the idea wouldnt prosper so much in any case. and not only from them, most of the people in every nation in the world would tell you a resouding no if you asked them to leave their home and move elsewhere.

You miss the point Noromp. When the Israelis existed "a few miles north, south and east" from Israel, they were living in Islamic dominated cultures, and from time to time suffered in those countries. There is nowhere else to go.

New York? Are not the Hassidics with their black overcoats and hats in summer the subject of derision? Weren't there huge Black/Jewish problems in Brooklyn years ago?

That's the whole point Noromp. The Arabs have plenty of options, the Jews one.

Even on the 'holy site' issue.

Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam.
But it's the holiest site of all in Judaism.
Who loses more in giving it up?

Normp, historically you are wrong. Adaptability and the movement of humankind are two hallmarks of the human race. We have moved into every climate. Adverse pressure creates movement. Full nomadism was practiced by entire cultures, let alone the resettlement immigrants undertake.

If everyone took your view America would not exist. Ireland would not exist! We would all be in ETHIOPIA![/QUOTE]You know Dount, on another forum I've been having a debate with an extreme right-winger and I had to argue the same points (on adaptability, not the arab situation) and some people seem to be so stuck in their ways it's scary, just because they know something works, they don't want to change, even for the better.

[khazadman]

the biggest problem the palestinians face about migrating to other islamic countries is that they don't want the palestinians in their countries.they hate the palestinians.and the arabs have killed far more palestinians than the israelis.